When your friends have badly behaved kids!

[Isit2021yetplease]

My eldest is 4 so I'm only just approaching the stage where I think children can be deliberately naughty when they really know what they're doing...and what they should and should not be doing.
I think toddlers are a law unto themselves and are not rational, so appreciate they have no real sense of right or wrong.

My issue is I have a very good friend who I've been friends with since uni. We had kids at similar times. We have a very different attitude to discipline, which is fine, you do you etc. She is very lax, doesn't ever shout (which is a good thing - I could learn a lot from!) however, her kids are incredibly messy, disruptive and destructive. Her house is always a state, walls are drawn on, stains on the carpet etc, no one sits still for meals so food is everywhere. They're renovating shortly so she's been particularly casual about it all. I am not anal but I like a tidy house, and while kids can make a mess, I would certainly get extremely cross if one of my kids drew on a wall or carpet or deliberately broke something.

It hasn't really been an issue over the past year as obviously we've barely been allowed in each others houses, however now lowdown is easing they came round to the garden yesterday and I really saw the full force of this. Her kids had zero respect for my house / toys, they cannot be trusted anywhere out of sight as they are destructive, and even things like going in to use the toilet, there's a high chance they'll pull all the toilet roll off, clog the sink and leave the taps on etc. All deliberately - a 4 year old knows what they're doing. I've watched them deliberately knocked pictures off the wall before, told them not to, they've apologised, and then as soon as my back is turned they did it again.

She knows they're hard work, and will sit and say things like "oh i should go check on James as god knows where he is if he's gone inside etc..." but then sit there for a further 10 mins. I don't want to helicopter parent her kids but at the same time I was having heart palpitations about what they might be doing. She will ask them to stop something but in a very casual "come on james you know you don't do that" without any authority so obviously doesn't get anywhere. I would be mortified if my kids treated someone else's house like that.

It's such a good friend though and I don't want to upset her, and i love her company. I accept we parent differently, and that's fine when it isn't ruining my stuff! I don't want to not invite her over for fear of her kids, but how do you tackle things like this?

It doesn't help that my kids are somehow incredibly sensible - not through anything I"ve done - they just love rules and I would definitely trust them to respect people's houses and not worry about what they might be doing, so by comparison hers seem even crazier.

Do I just have to grin and bare it if I want to reciprocate invites at our place? Should I mention it? Is it ever ok to discipline someone else kids if they're doing something in your house which is destructive?

I think Don't invite her over? Meet at the park, farm, zoo anywhere but your house?

It's easy for her to sit and let her kids cause havoc at your house. No repercussion for her or the kids!?

I wouldn't let her over again. My son's four and he wouldn't do those things at home or at other peoples. Plus its confusing for your children if other's are behaving like that and getting away with it.

I'd meet somewhere like @Takwxiab2 said but it's a total lack of respect from your friend

Yep, agree with pp - don’t meet at your home, or meet up without kids. She’s not going to change and every visit will be stressful for you.

I've a similar friend. It's really unsettling to have my kids toys broken &her kids pulling out everything in the house.

I rarely invite her over & go to her place instead. If they come here, it's outside or with full supervision. I so put away all the lego & board games, anything really withota of pieces as her kids tip everything out because they're allowed to at home to keep them quiet.

Meet outside at parks etc. if she asks why you are going to have to say something so make sure you have something prepared in your head. I’d go with the truth tbh, as nicely as possible as in very different parenting styles/can’t be bothered tidy up after 4 kids and leave it at that. In my experience god help her in teenage years

Meet outside or at her house? Or better still, arrange to meet without DC.

I still cringe about my BF's DS's behaviour 25 years later - even though he's now a charming young man in a very respectable profession .

It’s pretty sad, but I just see them without their kids. It stresses my own kids out too much to spend time with them.

I have a friend like this, we never ever meet at mine. Tbh her kids are so horrendous (to the point of making mine cry) that I try to have as little to do with her DC as possible.

I would do what others suggested meet friend without kids in evening for drinks etc and meet with kids somewhere outside; like a farm, playground

Meet for walks in the countryside. After an incident in a cafe, I added always take a picnic!

Remember this won't last forever.
They'll soon be at school, forging their own friendships and you'll hopefully have more options in meeting your friend without the children.

Pre-children, I had a friend come round and as soon as they were in, her 2 boys (between 4 and 6)were full on jumping on my sofa like it was a trampoline!
Yeah we don't do that here, chaps!

Sounds mean but I don't like other peoples kids. Mine are bad enough but at least I can shout at them ( not that they listen lol).

Tell them yourself. If they misbehave tell them they can't do that in your house.

Meet in the community. Walks, picnics, soft play, parks, build fires, damn streams, build tents from sticks and tarpaulin. They might just be the sort of kids who have a lot of excess energy and are more suited to adventure type play outside. Don’t have them in your house if it stresses you. It’s probably easier and more effective for you to tell them off. It’s your house and you set the rules. I also dislike shouting and see it as totally ineffective but there are better ways to discipline and direct

My nephews are like this. I usually just open the back door and encourage them into the garden

don’t meet at your home, or meet up without kids. She’s not going to change and every visit will be stressful for you.

This. Though to be honest I quickly lose respect for people who parent like this, so she wouldn’t be in my life much longer.

Just don't have them in your house surely.

As an aside, I don't think the children are being deliberately naughty. They have clearly not be shown or told not to behave in that way. How can you expect a child to know something if they have been never been told or shown?!

Tell them off. Your house, your rules. I treat all kids that come to my house the same as my kids. I expect the same standards of behaviour. They soon learn to behave and have a nice time.

It's so hard isn't it. I don't think I'm super strict or anything but I do expect my children to behave. I have a friend that has three 'spirited' boys (3,6 and 8) and I recall pre-lockdown taking my (two slightly younger girls) to her house.

She was aghast when I told my two year old sternly to sit down at once when she stood up and went to jump on my friends sofa. She looked at me all bolshy like two year olds do, and I took her down, told her that sofas are for bottoms and not feet and that if she couldn't sit nicely then she couldn't be on the sofa. She was the nearing three end of two and knows perfectly well that it isn't allowed.

My friend piped up with 'oh it's fine, my boys use the sofas to run and jump on' which they then proceeded to demonstrate, bouncing from one sofa to the other after I'd told my dd off and she just let them carry on while she chatted.

I also have another friend who doesn't care if her children swear. Not little swears either, things like fuck. I don't want mine picking that up.

I tend to try to see those friends without our children to be honest. I like them, and I like spending time with but I don't like spending time with them as parents so I don't!

I would try to see her outside of your home or see her on her own!

I think you should be able to tell off other people’s kids personally. Although I very rarely have the guts to do it. Outside dates, play parks, cafes and soft play when they open. Find excuses for them not going to your house. If she asks directly tell her that you don’t want them trying to flood your bathroom (?!) again.

Her parenting style is going to make it harder for her kids to make friends.

I think they don't have much control over themselves under 3, but by 4 they should have some control over themselves if they are NT. How are they going to cope at school?

As an aside, I don't think the children are being deliberately naughty. They have clearly not be shown or told not to behave in that way. How can you expect a child to know something if they have been never been told or shown?!

Good point —I let my kids jump on the settee though so clearly I don’t know anything—

Don’t invite her over and suggest you meet out every time. I’ve had this experience and I just don’t invite her to mine with kids as I don’t mind mess but things being broken or damaged beyond repair just isn’t fair.
On a lower level I’ve had to decide to let some things go (we don’t let the kids eat on the sofa and sometimes I’ll let that go when people come) and other times when kids have been jumping on the sofa I’ll say something along the lines of be careful, might not be a good idea to do that and the parent will get the hint or if I know them well I’ll say we tell DD off for that so she’ll her upset if she sees someone else doing it. Kids are quite good at policing this as they get older too, my DD tells her friends to take their shoes off!

Ok this is really useful thank you - I think I'll do as you say and avoid any invites to mine for the time being and deflect them where possible - and hopefully now things are starting to open up again it will be much easier to meet out and about at places (as opposed to just a walk which is all we've done for the past 6 months!). Last time we were properly in each others houses early last year the kids were younger so I let it slide a lot more, but as PP said, I do think at 4 years old they should be able to show self control - they're starting school in a matter of months.

I will probably be eating my words when my now-2 year old turns out to be a monster I can't control at 4 years old and regret ever congratulating myself I had sensible kids!