Consequence for DD(6) hitting

[TheDukeissoHot1]

What do you feel is an appropriate consequence for a 6yo DD who struggles to control her temper & regularly hits both DS(10) & me?

When she loses it she will scream, shout, insult me, throw things, deliberately damage something of DS’s or physically attack (scratch/hit/spit/kick). It is vile behaviour.

She has no additional needs, behaves like an angel outside of the home. We do not hit or smack our children. Our DS(10) is very gentle natured & has never hit her or us.

Have been trying to deal with it for a long time using naughty step/time out, loss of favourite toys and screen time but doesn’t seem to have any effect. I want her to realise this behaviour cannot carry on.

Current situation with lockdown really not helping and I desperately need new strategies.

Yes I’m a clearly a shit parent or my ‘consequences‘ would have worked years ago. Please, no judgemental posts, am looking for helpful, constructive advice.

After breakfast, sit down with her, and tell her you need both to have a very serious conversation, so she needs to listen very very carefully. You love her immensely but can no longer tolerate her violent outburst. She is 6 and able to understand that it is wrong. From this very moment, her behaviour will no longer be tolerated. She needs to control herself and if she doesn't, she is going to lose forever the things precious to her. Her teddy, her favourite dress, her bike, her ..... not confiscate, but GONE . FOREVER and EVER.
Tell her you won't hesitate. Is it understood?

We all get annoyed and mad when things go wrong, but we cannot lash at people or destroy things.
Tell her you want a happy house filled with laughters not tears or screams, so new house starts now. And shake hands, and cross hearts.

She is too old for time out.

Parenting is hard, life is hard. So you are not a shitty parent, you are just a parent. Who currently is trying address a shitty behaviour .

I am not a fan of taking away toys and clothes as children are dependent on us for those necessities and those actions make them feel insecure in their own home.

Have you tried telling her that hitting is violent and cruel and hurts makes people frightened of her, and people don't spend time with people who mistreat them or scare them. Then when she hits, respond with hurt expression and refuse to interact with her for a few hours. No yelling, just everyone physically leaves and she is ignored until she calms down. No one plays with her or talks to her. This is so-called "natural consequences", teaching what will happen to her in the real world if she is someone who hits or is mean to people.

Also, meant to say no judgment, OP. Every kid is different and a lot of it is down to innate personality.

I’ll get flamed for this, but here goes.

My DS2 was exactly the same up until the age of five and NOTHING worked. I tried every variation on consequences you have suggested/tried plus every deep and meaningful psychological, empathetic talking approach you can think of, zones of regulation, How to Talk So Your Child Will Listen blah blah blah...we were on the verge of getting a SN assessment for him, he was so bad.

One day, I was doing spellings with him and he threw them on the floor. I told him to pick them up and he punched me as hard as he could in the mouth instead. It was the last fucking straw. I got one of his newer toys that he was quite obsessed with and smashed it repeatedly to pieces in front of him with a hammer. We were both in tears but he has NEVER done it again. I’ve seen him come close but he has visibly checked himself and his behaviour really turned a corner and has been much better. I think he needed the shocking visual of violence towards something else coupled with the obvious permanent loss of something to drive the message home that physical thuggery is a terrible choice.

First of all - you are not a bad parent.

Can you prove that if it weren't for the extra stress of lockdown your strategies wouldn't have worked by now?

I don't think getting more and more angry works with young children. Clearly she has some enormous emotions just now.

Give her a better tool. Don't say 'dont do x' say 'when you are angry, go and throw this cushion'. Reward any time they do it right. There are loads of examples online - jump up and down, crush cardboard, rip paper etc. Pick the one that seems best or let her pick.

The old school supernanny poster with a plane going up and down the clouds could be good in this situation.

It will be upsetting for her, she is still quite young and whilst you absolutely need it to stop, feeling angry is a natural part of life and she needs teaching how to deal with it better. If we just ask kids to 'stop' we aren't giving them an alternative.

When she loses it

Why is she losing it?

First antecedents. Is she tired, hungry, bored, lonely etc. Is what you're asking her age appropriate and can she do it, physically and emotionally. OK once you've worked out that she can do it and is not in a place that makes it hard...

Emotional communication and recognition. When she 'loses it' you empatise. Theatrically works with my DD, who was an extremely 'difficult' child. So she stubs her toe on a stool, starts to get angry. "Right! We have to throw that stool out, dreadful stool, I always hated it" or if she needs emotional support, "I hate stubbing my toe it hurts so much!" Identity the feeling empatise with her.

The most important thing is building the relationships. Between outbursts you spend time building her up. Have a properly good 'story' about her. DD's is that I didn't want to have a child, daddy convinced me and by an amazing coincidence I got the worlds best child.

But if she does lash out, immediate, serious, natural consequences. We can't do the fun thing/screen time/whatever because you've chosen to hurt someone. Even at that point, and this is important, you're still loving and empathetic. It's incredibly important. "I know it's crap we can't go to the park. I wish we could but we can't if you're hitting" in a kind, calm tone of voice. Even apologise but don't back down. Don't take her things forever. What's the motivation to improve at that point?

It's clear she's strong willed (good) knows her own mind (good) tough (good) but it's directed poorly. And lockdown is a shit time to solve that. But you can.

Our eldest went through a phase of hitting, not us, but at school. The school weren't exactly doing much when it was happening, no consequences at all.

I had told him the consequences of doing this in later life, where the Police would be involved. The last time he did it, I'd had enough and we agreed here that a "hard shock" was needed. I arranged for the Police (a PCSO went) to talk to him at school (the school agreed to this). Apparently he was in shock when he went into the room and they were there. They spoke to him and it never happened again.

Various people told me we were cruel for doing that and that's their opinion and that's fine. The situation was getting out of hand and we had to do something about it.

@MrsTerryPratchett I completely agree. She is clearly acting out for a reason. Usually children act like this when they are craving more attention or need something more from us.
When she hits out, okay the emotion she is feeling and then maintain the boundary. It's okay to feel angry, frustrated but I will not let you hit your brother. If you have to physically hold her hands down to stop her hitting then do it but stay with her until she calms down. Wait until she has calmed down to talk about it, what made her angry, why she feels like hitting and what can she do instead when she feels like this, for example hit a pillow or go somewhere else to calm down.

Thankyou so much for your kind & non judgemental replies. I’ve been awake most the night worrying and am currently sat in tears reading this.

To answer a few questions:

Have you tried telling her that hitting is violent and cruel and hurts makes people frightened of her, and people don't spend time with people who mistreat them or scare them.

Yes I have talked to her many times about her behaviour. When she is calm she understands it is wrong & is always very sorry after the event but in the heat of the moment that is forgotten.

Can you prove that if it weren't for the extra stress of lockdown your strategies wouldn't have worked by now?

No I can’t prove it - the last year certainly hasn’t helped & she is definitely struggling with the lack of contact with her friends and wider family, and the complete loss of her life as she knew it.

In some respects I am worried about coming down too hard on her because of the situation- it’s hard enough for adults to deal with let alone a small child, but she cannot continue to do what she is doing. And if I’m honest she was doing it well before the pandemic started.

Give her a better tool. Don't say 'dont do x' say 'when you are angry, go and throw this cushion'

We have suggested she hits her pillow as an outlet, she’s only done it once or twice so perhaps needs reminding.

Why is she losing it?

Can be any number of reasons from something really trivial like us putting the stairs light on when she wanted to walk up in the dark (non negotiable-safety reasons) or asking her to put clean underwear on in the morning (non-negotiable -hygiene reasons), basically anything where she can’t have her own way. Or it could be something like DS using something of hers without asking first or him being unkind to her - so anytime she feels she has been wronged in some way. I try to intervene to keep the situation calm & encourage to talk calmly about her feelings but it often escalates very quickly to full on anger.

Trigger points are often getting ready for bed and getting ready for school or to leave the house. It becomes difficult to impose an immediate sanction such as ignoring her when we have to leave the house to get to school or she is on her way to bed, then by the time we’re home or she’s up in the morning she’s forgotten what she did wrong in the first place. If it is the middle of the day I will certainly give it a longer go. How long is appropriate to refuse to engage with her?

I am not a fan of taking away toys and clothes as children are dependent on us for those necessities and those actions make them feel insecure in their own home.

Don't take her things forever. What's the motivation to improve at that point?

I am pleased you have both said this. I could never bring myself to permanently remove her most treasured cuddly. It brings her an immense source of comfort and her attachment to it is important in helping her calm down.

In some respects I am worried about coming down too hard on her because of the situation- it’s hard enough for adults to deal with let alone a small child, but she cannot continue to do what she is doing. And if I’m honest she was doing it well before the pandemic started.

The pandemic has certainly added an extra layer of doubt to my parenting, this is a very tough time to feel confident about anything!

But I also think you're right it can't be ignored, I thought @MrsTerryPratchett had some really helpful ideas.

Trigger points are often getting ready for bed and getting ready for school or to leave the house.

That's easy then (well, sort of) she's bad at transitions. Slow approach. Slow approach children will have been slow approach babies and will be slow approach adults. It's a remarkably persistent trait. They need clear timelines, lots of warning, and use humour. She doesn't want to change her knickers, "OMG what's that smell, aarrgggghhh I'm dying" fall to the floor and writhe around. It gets the point across without shaming or anger.

And her older sibling taking her things and being unkind, 10 is old enough not to. Make sure DD sees you have her back on this. She clearly has a burning sense of justice (also good) so that's what to focus on, "DD I know that's really unfair, I know you care about fairness. But hitting is also unfair and wrong".

You do sound like a terrible comedian or social worker all the time but it works.

We dida team teach course for challenging behaviour years ago and were taught one magic phrase for when anyone is on the verge or ' losing it. '

' I can see you're upset. Come with me and we can sort it out '.

My dd has Autism and that could stop even her in her tracks if caught early enough. It recognises the emotion without judgement. It offers the guidance of an adult working through a solution. I felt like a right idiot the first time I said it but it honestly works.

Another one was recognising emotion. So if she's angry don't judge or punish the anger. Acknowledge it. ' I can see you're angry '. If she's unworkable get out of her space until she calms a little. When someone's already on the edge they can't be reached. And never try to reason with her whilst she's angry.

Punishment we don't do.nWe go down natural consequences. So if they break something then it needs replacing. That might mean missing a treat or pocket money. But that's just life. Same with lashing out. That person may not want to play with them, so a discussion around their behaviour is needed. Etc and so on.

Hi OP, to your comment about struggling to enforce immediate consequences due to needing to go to bed or leave the house etc., the pandemic is actually the perfect time to be flexible on some of those routines. Dressingt with this issue might take precedence over bedtime routine for a few weeks. She hits at bedtime, instantly no talking to her, turn off the light and just leave her to it. If she sleeps in her clothes one night or doesn't brush her teeth it won't kill her. The key is to look really disappointed and hurt, because that's how everyone who isn't her family would feel--instant shock and withdrawal. You do have to warn her in advance during a calm time that this is how things will be so she doesn't feel abandoned and can try to change her behavior. "If you hit me, I won't read you a bedtime story and there will be no cuddles. I will not be around you if you hit me, and neither will any of your friends."

I’m always curious about these threads when a parent comes on to discuss behaviour, is quick to state no SEN, but the reality is unless your child has been assessed, you just don’t know. It’s particularly hard right now with the pandemic, lots of feelings, and lots of behaviour, but...

I have an autistic 6yo, and a lot of what you describe fits him to a T. He too has issues with transition, and anger, he will lash out, physically and verbally, at us in the family (he’s very good at masking outside the house and is generally a dream child in other settings).

You’ve had some good advice about transitions. I find warnings/preparation can be helpful, but also sticking to the plan - so I have taken a screaming child out for a walk, because I have told him we will be going. Usually he sorts himself out after a few minutes, and then we have the same issue about going home. Most of his reaction is about fear, and in a pandemic it’s hard, ‘outside’ doesn’t feel so safe. He’s also terrified of dogs, and we have had many encounters with lockdown puppies of late. Often with poor recall.

If he’s melting down there isn’t much I can do beyond restrain and try and calm him. He’s basically not there, so adding in anger and shame just adds fuel to the fire. We go for calming down and then problem solving together. Recognising and labelling emotion is helpful for him too. Sometimes we can diffuse the situation just by observing and diverting emotion.

If this is just a pandemic thing I’d probably watch carefully, if it’s been going on for much longer I would keep an open mind - girls in particular are excellent maskers and ASD is hard to spot in all age groups. What are her friendships like? Does she have any special/intense interests?

All of the above makes it sound like we’ve really got is sorted. Actually we don’t - it’s a permanently exhausting battle, but I do think we have made some progress in the last year.

Remove all toys from room and send her there with only a piece of paper for entertainment

Tbh, I have no idea. You should have nipped it in the bud the 1st time it happened.

I know you said you dont want to...but take away one of her favorite toys.

When I was around 8, I took money from my dads wallet.

He shouted at me, embarrased me in front of my friends, and he took away my favorite toy. I never saw it again. I also never took money from his wallet again!

As a PP said, recognising the emotion will be really helpful for her. "I can see that you're angry/upset."

It might also be useful to model specific calming strategies while she's calm e.g. "when I feel angry, I close my eyes and count to five. One elephant... two elephants... etc." Or squeeze a stress ball, something that will take her out of the situation and distract her. Once she's been supported with these strategies it's really important to acknowledge it with positive reinforcement.

I hope things get better for you

Random idea but could you exactly copy her actions, but lashing out at the cherished cuddly? It wouldn't make any difference to a stuffed toy to be struck in the same way it's owner had struck a family member, but wouldn't the owner be pulled up sharp to witness it?

We are working on a similar issue. Lockdown is having a big impact. Can she articulate why she does it and does she feel regret afterwards?

We’re working on emotions following advice from school. Google the zones of self regulation. We talk about the red zone (anger) and the green zone (calm) we talk about our toolkit to get back to green. We have a corner of the room where together we made posters about it meant to be in the different emotional zones. I have a poster with my toolkit listed (so what calms me down) and DS has his. In that corner he then keeps a few things that help him calm down. A doodle book, some books to read, a comforter etc. When he goes to red we encourage him to go to the calm zone until he’s back to green. Early days but talking about why he feels angry and acknowledging that anger itself isn’t a bad thing but how we react is important seems to help. I talk about my feelings and my zones throughout the day as well

We had major issues with DS last summer. He went back to school in Sept and was totally back to normal. We can see now that he’s starting to go in the same direction again so hoping this is going to help and we can get through to 8 March

I should say suspected SEN here (autism / adhd) but borderline and I don’t think that changes approach much

Good luck!

Also watch Inside Out together - that was a bit of a game changer for us in talking about emotion

@fridaseyebrows made such an important point: teach her it's ok and normal to get angry. Ask you ask is that she control her actions. Rewards and treats for every time she gets really angry but controls herself. See if she can learn to express it verbally in the moment "I'm SO angry brother took my toy! Right now I want to hit him, I'm SO angry!" and then reward and praise for not doing it.

You sound like a very caring, loving and reflective Mum. It’s so difficult. My middle child has become like this since she turned 6. Such a change from the calm, placid toddler that she was! Natural consequences is a more fair and reasonable way to react, I think. I teach and specialise in working with children with poor self regulation and other emotional challenges. Consistency is key ( so difficult to achieve tho!) and really catching the positives as and when they happen, however small. I love the Webster Stratton parent programme. Focusing on small but manageable targets. Have a look at The Incredible Years.

Tbh, I have no idea. You should have nipped it in the bud the 1st time it happened.

This is exactly the sort of unhelpful comment I was hoping to avoid. I have already acknowledged I’ve done a shit job & don’t need it pointing out. Do you think I haven’t tried to ‘nip it in the bud’? I do confiscate things but no, I don’t want to permanently dispose of her most treasured cuddly in the world that she sleeps with every night thank you. I don’t think she would ever forget that or forgive me for it. Nor do I actually think it would stop her from lashing out.
Thankyou @MrsTerryPratchett, @Highfalutinlootin, @Flamingolingo, @Stitchyfingers there are some really helpful ideas there & I’m already trying to use them.

We’ve had a better day today (no screaming or hitting) although I really need to work on encouraging both DC to be kinder to each other.

DS has put up with such a lot from DD over the years, she has hit him so many times and he never ever retaliates, but he is growing less tolerant of it these days (who can blame him really) I want to ensure DD feels like I have her back when things seem unfair to her but more so I want DS to know I have his back and won’t let her hurt him.

@Flamingolingo I’m as certain as I can be (without, as you say, getting her assessed) that DD does not have any SEN. I only mentioned it in my op as I half expected to be asked. She has never displayed any repetitive behaviours or special interests, she hit all her milestones normally, she maintains good eye contact, she has a good sense of humour, she has lots of friends including a best friend, she can recognise when others are sad or upset and she displays great empathy for others. The one and only issue for her is her temper, otherwise she’s mostly a delight.

I feel reasonably confident in saying all of this because DS does display some ASD traits (though undiagnosed) and she does not do any of the things he does. Though he definitely does not have an uncontrollable temper - he is extremely gentle natured. It’s amazing how they can be such polar opposites.

My 6 year old dd is like this too, she'll suddenly explode over the smallest things. I have found that ignoring and being calm works best. Sometimes distraction. But taking away a toy (especially a favourite one) rarely helps and usually escalates things. I do it if it's related to the problem - the other day she was watching her dvd player when her tv time was over and she was meant to be getting dressed and ready for school work. So that was removed and I explained why. She still had a tantrum but if I'd taken her teddy it would have been 10x worse. A 'now-next' board has been suggested to me for transitions, especially bedtime so am going to try that. I do think lockdown has an effect, the first one was pretty bad but she improved so much once she was able to be around other children again.

@TheDukeissoHot1 sure, but we are probably a bit unusual because our child was diagnosed by accident (I was hoping for another outcome). He doesn’t display many typical traits, and I’m pretty sure none of our friends know. He has good friendships, a little over invested in his favourite TV show but probably not excessively so, he’s empathetic (possibly a little too empathetic, and that causes it’s own problems). He is a dream child at school and on play dates (I assume, it’s been a while). He is also one of the kindest children I’ve ever met.

His key issues are anger and anger management, lashing out. For him it’s all related to an inability to process his emotions appropriately, and also significant underlying anxiety issues. He has a very strong sense of fair, and can react badly to transitions. He basically can’t recognise how he’s feeling and it all comes out as anger.

I’m not diagnosing your child, just offering an experience that ASD doesn’t always look how you might think, and when persistent behaviour issues present (if this becomes persistent) it’s worth keeping an open mind. Especially in a girl, because masking is such an issue. Fwiw, I now assume that I also have ASD but I had a fairly normal childhood, a high achiever in school, prone to the odd meltdown (a bit highly strung), had plenty of friends but was perhaps a bit fickle.

And for my own child, he is really incredible, and some of his best qualities are also part of his ASD; he is an incredibly deep thinker and comes up with all sorts of wonderful questions. But knowing what causes his issue has opened doors for us as a family.