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Wishing I weren't a parent: what works for a completely unmotivated child?

66 replies

JKRowlingSuperfan · 27/09/2020 19:10

NC'ed for this as I'm ashamed of it.

DD is 10. She's mostly a nice enough child with other people, though prone to tantrums and strops when everything doesn't go precisely her way. She's social, has friends, seems to be reasonably behaved at school (or at least she was till March, it's too early to say what difference the lockdown may have made).

But she won't put any effort into anything, doesn't care about anything, isn't interested in anything. With the exception of Minecraft and Roblox, which she would play all day and all night given the chance. It's just soul-destroying and pointless: she's bright and could do well, but doesn't care enough to try. Her writing's appalling, she has to be pushed to pick up a book (though she does like being read to), she's good at maths but makes silly mistakes because she's just rushing to get it done. She plays two instruments, and could be good at one of them if she tried harder: she does just enough practice to keep me from cancelling the lessons. I'm sick of the sound of my own voice telling her that it's her choice whether or not to play an instrument but if she chooses to play, she has to practice.

Lockdown made it much worse, before that we could get her interested in cooking or doing things around the house, but now she just says she'd like to do X "but not now". She doesn't seem to think ahead at all so it's hard to devise any incentives that work.

I'm tired. I've had a rough ride through lockdown, my job is safe but I'm managing a team that has been very busy and stressed. No-one except DH gives a damn about me, and he's also struggling with DD. I desperately wish I hadn't had DD: at the moment I look forward to the weekends, and they disappear in a series of fights, so I get to Sunday evening wishing I'd just stayed at work. I'll be honest, I don't like her any more. She's arrogant and rude to DH and me, and unless something changes radically she's going to be an adult who contributes nothing worthwhile to the world. I can't see how we're going to survive the teenage years if it gets worse than this.

OP posts:
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JKRowlingSuperfan · 27/09/2020 22:02

Oh, and there is some very bad behaviour, @CloudyVanilla - I count screaming, stropping, throwing tantrums that would shame a three-year-old and being vilely rude to me and her dad as bad behaviour, personally. She saves it for us, she's OK at school.

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CloudyVanilla · 27/09/2020 22:30

@JKRowlingSuperfan fair enough, if her behaviour is bad and it's more about that than the other stuff then of course I agree you should take the games away.

Unfortunately online games can really sap motivation and willingness to deal with real life in full grown people, let alone children. But games in general can be really fun and wholesome.

If I were you I would deal with the bad behaviour separately to the motivation issue. If she doesn't have the games to play other aspects of life do suddenly become more appealing.

I still stand by trying not to judge her personality at this age. She is so young still, she has plenty of time to mature and get a grip on this stuff. It sounds as though you spend a lot of time arguing and maybe losing the games would help her to focus more on real life. Maybe try not to micromanage her once she has lost the games and see how gets on for a while.

BertieBotts · 27/09/2020 22:32

She sounds very much like DS1. He is nearly 12. It is getting better - since he's started at secondary he'll come home and suddenly say he wants to start magic tricks, or skateboarding, or something. We encourage everything because for years, since he was about 4 all he's cared about was gaming and TV and to be honest it's boring! I don't always have the money to rush out and buy him a full set of stuff but we look for second hand items or possibilities to practise - share/borrow a friend's while he works out if he wants to do it or not.

I don't think this is about being ambitious. I am not ambitious. But it's worrying to see a child have such limited interests, and I think it negatively affects your relationship with them when you feel like there's nothing you connect over. Then that becomes a vicious circle where your relationship is not as it could be, they don't want to listen to your suggestions, they're moody, it becomes unpleasant and unfun to spend time with them, that leads to you avoiding it, etc. You also know IME if your child is acting very differently to other children their age.

Minimising screen access has helped. I have also spent some time ensuring that some of his screen time is used in a different way - we play games together, because I do think it's important to try and meet your child where their interests are, I have also got him interested in coding and he does some of this, but he resents and will resist both of these things if he suspects it's eating into his "real" screen time.

I find when I set up activities for him to join me in, it works better than just trying to spend unstructured time together or waiting for our relationship to naturally improve because we end up bickering.

He has a diagnosis of ADHD (non hyperactive) - this was picked up only because I was diagnosed myself and so questioned it in him as he is very similar to me. He doesn't have any official support/therapy/treatment for it because it doesn't really affect the areas that those things target (school, antisocial behaviour). But I do think (because I know how it affects me) that it's behind this seeming lack of interest in everything - I don't think it is actually that he lacks interests, because given sufficient motivation and someone meeting him halfway, he will pick up various things and give them a try. It's just that when it's totally up to him, he will go straight for the least-effort option and the least-effort option tends to be games or TV (youtube).

I'm mentioning this because as I understand it, this is all likely related to the production and consumption of dopamine. Dopamine is one of the brain chemicals involved in reward and seeking rewarding behaviour - it's highly implicated in addiction, and I think this is HUGELY relevant. The creators of platforms like YouTube and games like Roblox specifically design their products in such a way that they deliver lots of little, constant "rewards" which pings off your dopamine producing brain bits (technical term :o) adults experience this too with things like Facebook - all of that constant notifications, never ending news feed, novelty seeking etc all feeds into the same kind of thing, and that keeps you on their platform generating ad revenue for them. Children can be more susceptible to this because their brains are still developing. We found Roblox really really bad for it actually, to the point we banned it, and in our case there weren't any benefits to offset that, unlike Minecraft which was also quite collaborative and creative, and Fortnite which is sociable and at least has set end points (stop after X number of matches).

The other aspect of dopamine is motivation - when you're low on dopamine you will often feel like everything is too much effort, like you can't be bothered, find it difficult to concentrate, and starting anything feels overwhelming, so you just won't bother. It's a bit like (if you remember pre kids) when you live alone and let yourself get too hungry, so you can't be bothered to make a proper dinner, you just want to eat biscuits instead. Social media, youtube and some kinds of games can be the equivalent of "just eating biscuits" - nothing wrong with biscuits! But if that's all you ever eat then it's not going to make you feel very good in general. And the social media isn't REALLY filling up your dopamine receptors, just like biscuits don't really fill you up when you're hungry. Better, longer lasting sources of dopamine are more fulfilling interactions which we perceive as rewarding - achieving things, making social connections, making something, laughing, feeling accepted, all of these kinds of things.

I mention this in conjunction with ADHD because they think in ADHD it's like the dopamine levels are constantly low because it is being drained away too quickly (and stimulants work because they make you produce more of it). I'm not saying ADHD is your issue, maybe it is maybe it isn't, it is worth reading how it affects girls BTW, but that some kind of similar process might be happening, where she is going for a lower effort kind of activity and/or feeling blocked from starting a higher effort activity because she is struggling with something, especially as you say it's got worse during lockdown, because many, MANY adults even are struggling with these kinds of feelings in lockdown and it can be because we are being starved of many of our usual sources of dopamine, and because we're not consciously aware of that we don't know where else to look to ensure we get enough.

So basically, action plan:

  • Affirmations/reminders when it's annoying you: She's not doing this on purpose. She's not doing it to annoy you. Kids do well when they can. If she's not doing well it's because she can't. Not because she won't.
  • Automated time limits where possible. It cuts out the arguments and negotiation attempts, because this kind of behaviour can mimic addiction, so they will never be fair or reasonable negotiations. Make it clear, no budging. If you find her cheating or somehow breaking the restriction in order to get extra time, the device is banned for the next day or two. If you are getting the whole rest of the day taken up by attempted negotiations and/or complaints that the screen time is over and this does not reduce after a few days of her realising you're not going to give in this time, the screen time might be too much - reduce it.
  • Prepare to fill up SOME of her time with activities chosen by you in which you participate in together. Make some of it her interest - her game, her instrument, reading together (we do one page each/I read 2, he reads 1). Fully participate :) If you find it tedious, set a time limit for yourself - let her know you will do X with her for 20 minutes, then stop. Be fully present and attentive during those 20 minutes.
  • For other activities you choose to fill her time, this can be a bit more passive - I bought a jigsaw and started setting it up on the living room table, we do bits of it when we get time, we don't always do it together. I have started arranging weekend activities that we all do as a family, not every weekend, but most (3/4). Often just a walk. He is allowed to play Pokemon Go on the walks, but often doesn't because his screen time is already finished for the day. I find TV series I think he would enjoy and we watch them together (preferably "live" - no binge watching - the discussion time in between episodes is important).
  • Provide accessible materials for things she may choose to do independently - books she really wants to read, apps/websites/books relating to her instrument which may inspire her. Have a look at the home ed term "strewing" - this can be a really useful technique, but essentially what you're doing is meeting her halfway, and taking that first step for her which she may be blocked from doing.
  • Work on that future planning, as that IS a skill which may be lacking and can be built on. She may complain she is bored now, but what can she do now to ensure she won't be bored tomorrow? What could she be doing now if she had thought to set it up before? (One example in our house: Playdates only ever happened spontaneously, I have finally managed to get him to arrange a playdate in the future if he cannot manage one right now).
  • Useful reads (maybe)
Smart But Scattered by Guare and Dawson Raising Human Beings / The Explosive Child - either has the collaborative problem solving model in. By Ross Greene. The Whole Brain Child by Siegel and Bryson.

All of this creates less room for negative interactions and more room for neutral and positive interactions which helps build the connection and relationship between you and will probably help the most.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about these subjects:

AFireInJuly · 27/09/2020 22:51

Hmm. I don't know any children this age, but I can remember it quite well. I was the polar opposite in that I read all the time and was obsessed with history but didn't have many other interests. I wasn't sporty and I could never stick at a musical instrument. I lived inside my head a lot, and couldn't be bothered to put effort into things I wasn't interested in. It probably frustrated my parents, I don't know.

The thing is, I'm still a bit like that. I can spend ages watching films/telly, reading and not doing much productive. I wouldn't say I have any hobbies particularly.

I now have a decent professional job which depends on my capability read and write a vast amount every day (City lawyer - also part of the reason why I don't have hobbies!). The way I got into that was doing a history degree, then another (master's) which my mother thought was pointless. Turns out a lot of City lawyers have Oxbridge history degrees... I'm sure a lot of my teachers wrote me off as lazy and unmotivated, but actually I am extremely motivated with regard to stuff that interests me - it's just that's quite limited. I never gave a shit about Geography, for example, and made no effort.

I just Googled Roblox and Minecraft - they actually look quite constructive, all about building your own world etc. If your daughter is really into that, I'm not surprised that she's not much into reading (as that's quite passive). Is it such a bad thing? My sister pretty much never read a book unless forced to at school, but she has a first class degree in mathematics and a high-flying career (and still doesn't have any books in her house).

Maybe it's just a question of letting her choose what motivates her? If she wanted to read for pleasure, she would. What about something like a kids' course for writing code? The bad behaviour does indeed sound bad, but perhaps it's partly arising out of frustration that she doesn't get to do stuff she's interested in as much as she wants.

I don't really have an answer, and I'm not trying to criticise you - just putting forward another point of view I guess.

minipie · 27/09/2020 23:05

The rushing - could you have a set time when screen time will be allowed and it’s never allowed earlier than that even if she’s finished her work? So no incentive to rush?

Also - I think most children, even 10 year olds, are tired out at the moment. Going back to school full time after 6 months doing very little is a shock to the system. Lots of colds around too. She may just be out of energy for anything at all challenging. Tiredness may also be behind some of the behaviour.

GrumpyHoonMain · 28/09/2020 05:50

Take away the screens and you’ll probably notice an immediate behaviour improvement. Then start introducing consequences - if she doesn’t pick up a book / practice and you told her once, that’s fine. But then be completely honest with her teachers about her lack of motivation in front of her during parents evenings. Attatch future music lessons to effort - if she doesn’t make the effort you stop paying etc

JKRowlingSuperfan · 28/09/2020 07:45

@BertieBotts, that's incredibly helpful, thank you. We're doing some of that already (automated time limits, for instance), but other things definitely sound worth a try. Though I wish I could find some books she really wanted to read, it would be half the battle!

She's done some coding and enjoyed it, but the coding club she used to go to isn't running because of Covid. Same with her swimming lessons. And one of the things we used to be able to do together was go to the theatre and concerts, which of course is also out.

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dooratheexplorer · 28/09/2020 08:17

Is she an introvert or an extrovert? What are you?

I loved spending time at home on my own drawing, painting and generally doing creative things. My Mum wanted me to be out with my friends playing and being sociable. She made me feel that there was something a bit wrong with me for not wanting to socialise. I also love cooking now but at home she would hover over me in the kitchen barking orders to clean as I went. I never bothered to cook at home because it was just too stressful. I'm still quite messy when I cook now!

I think I would let her be a bit and see which direction she takes. My Mum was very controlling and it affected which direction I headed. I think if I had been left to my own devices a bit more (but encouraged) I would have been far more successful career-wise. I think I have spent most of my time feeling conficted because I didn't trust my own judgement about what was right for me.

Set limits on the online gaming. Start your homework straight away and spend a minimum amount of time on it (an hour or so?) and you can go online from 7pm for an hour.

BertieBotts · 28/09/2020 08:19

Can you ask around her friends what they are reading? At 10 I devoured all the animal ark books. Is your library open? Maybe take her there, or a book shop, and see what catches her eye.

Judging by your username I guess you've tried Harry Potter :o

We watched the first series of His Dark Materials last year and then DS read the second two books from that series. He's now moved on to the hunger games which is the first book that's really gripped him since then, it's probably a bit old for a 10yo though.

What about the Enid Blyton boarding school books? There will be a book out there she loves, it's just finding the right one.

BertieBotts · 28/09/2020 08:21

Scratch and Khan Academy coding can be done from home and it's free. Sometimes we have days when I say "productive" screen time is "free". Or we do things together.

JKRowlingSuperfan · 28/09/2020 09:38

@dooratheexplorer She's an extrovert, I'm an introvert. I don't think I'm telling her that her way of being is wrong - I'm always really happy to have her friends over and facilitate real-life socialising. One of the difficulties of the present situation is that ordinarily she plays in an ensemble and sings in a choir, which gives her a bit of focus for the music, and neither of those is possible. I could live perfectly happily with her not wanting to read, provided she wanted to do something that wasn't the sodding gaming.

Coding together is probably beyond me, I'm afraid - I don't have that kind of brain. DH is much better, but half the trouble is that she won't take suggestions: if you try to do an activity together, it usually ends up with her flouncing off if you dare say anything. Or breathe, sometimes. It's miserable for everyone.

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AFireInJuly · 28/09/2020 13:06

Is it really so important that she learns to like reading fiction? As I said before, I was a total bookworm as a child and still am, but reading for pleasure is not inherently a virtuous or productive thing to do and plenty of people are not bothered. To be honest, I would leave that and concentrate on things that are worth a battle, like getting her to do schoolwork properly.

Similarly, with trying to get her involved in cooking - a few 10 year olds may be interested in cooking, but I wouldn't have thought that many were. In my experience it's something that younger children enjoy and get excited about but it wears off as they get older.

I think it would be worth thinking about what exactly it is the you want for her. It jumped out at me that you said that you were a "boring and talentless child" and you don't want her to be like you were. I am sure that you were not - did someone tell you that?

For your reading, I would really recommend "The Book You Wish Your Parents Had Read" by Philippa Perry - it gets lots of good reviews and is useful for thinking about your own childhood as well as bringing up children yourself.

AFireInJuly · 28/09/2020 13:10

Sorry - you just said you could live with her not reading - ignore that bit!

SoddingWeddings · 28/09/2020 13:14

Could she be dyslexic, have unidentified learning needs etc? Sounds like she might be averse to things that involve reading and writing - does she lack confidence because she finds them hard?

My husband wasn't diagnosed with dyslexia until he was nearly 40, and he has very low confidence in himself after being written off as stupid, lazy etc because he struggled with reading and writing.

JKRowlingSuperfan · 28/09/2020 13:26

She reads fast and fluently, I'm sure it's not dyslexia - my brother was dyslexic so I was on the watch for that when she started school.

I don't specifically want her to cook, either, but it's something I do competently and could have shared with her easily. I tried her on a range of things (dance classes, swimming) pre-Covid but she wasn't enthusiastic about any of them: I insisted on her carrying on with the swimming as it's a basic skill, but will let her give up when she's confident in the water. If she expressed an interest in something I'd be happy to let her try it out but (going back to the OP) she's not interested in anything. I honestly don't know what to do.

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barkingmadmother · 28/09/2020 13:34

Just wanted to offer my sympathy we have a lot of the same with our DS10. About to have an Ed psych assess so will be interesting to see if it is adhd - I think it is...

We have an outright ban on games in the week. Tv allowed after homework is done. A lot of tantrums and shouting and rudeness. He seems to actively dislike me which I find stressful and hurtful.

RaisinGhost · 28/09/2020 14:01

Seems like there is a few different issues here. The rudeness is obviously not on, you will know which disincentives will work best for her for that one. I completely get why that is awful.

As for the other stuff though, it sounds like you are being a bit unreasonable. It's totally normal to drag your feet on homework and music practice at that age. Is there any kid that doesn't do this? Saying it means she's going to be an adult who contributes nothing worthwhile to the world is just silly and a bit mean. Academically and motivation wise, she actually sounds fine. She learns two instruments, does well at school especially in maths and has friends. How many parents out there would kill to be able to describe their kid like that?

OK she plays games too much, but what kid doesn't? Focus on that without making it in to something it isn't.

corythatwas · 28/09/2020 14:17

She sounds very much like my son at that age. Looking back 10 years later, I think we would both have a similar take:

a) he thinks he should have worked harder and I accept that I could probably have pushed him harder

b) pushing or no pushing that would never have turned him into that bright, interested, passionate child I would have expected any child of mine to be. Someone who loved their hobby, got excited about it. He just didn't have that personality. Still doesn't.

But what he is, is a very reliable person, a steady worker- not because he feels passionate about his job but because you have to have one and you might as well buckle down to it. Someone who likes watching a bit of Netflix or the Champion League or playing football with his mates in the park or having a beer together, but who isn't passionate about an interest. Some people are like that too.

He is contributing something worthwhile to the world and will no doubt continue to do so. We can't have a world solely peopled by great innovators and thinkers and artists- we need ordinary plodding people to do the work too.

His sister is training to be an actress, she is incredibly driven, reads everything about her interest and enjoys improvising and writing scripts. Of course that is exciting and makes for good Christmas round robins. But you couldn't run a country just on high-thinking luvvies. Or even on teachers or managing directors. We need the steady plodders too.

ConcernedAboutWarrington · 28/09/2020 15:05

@BertieBotts has some really good advice.

I have a DD of a similar age.

You don't mention any other DCs.

Tell her you are putting the gaming away until after Christmas. Set those expectations. Say that its because you and DH love her very much and you think its affecting her behaviour. Say that the people who make games specifically make them addictive but that it's not helping her in real life at the moment. Say that she can see friends in school / clubs and that's it.

Some really simple things.

WALK every day. Preferably after dinner, for an hour. It will do you both good. Ask her not how her day was, but 'tell me about three good things that happened today'. Ask her about 'one annoying thing that happened today'. Tell her about your good / annoying things. All whilst you're walking. Facing forwards takes away the tension. Walking is what humans are meant to do. Make this something special that you and her do together. Do it from 7-8pm every evening.

Then when she's home, quick shower / pyjamas and half an hour of reading / chosen TV / board game together, and then bed.

Whilst you're encouraging independence, she's looking to you for a lot of leadership. You're most important job here is to be a present parent. Teach her (and learn yourself) about the really simple, self-driven, FREE things that you can use to make a good use of your time, relax, be sociable, and identify what means a lot to you in life.

Slow down on the classes, lessons, computer games. She's got all of her teenage years to get into them if they're not working for any of you right now.

barkingmadmother · 28/09/2020 15:48

I love these ideas @ConcernedAboutWarrington but my son would have a total meltdown if u suggested a walk after dinner. I would literally have to carry him.

ConcernedAboutWarrington · 28/09/2020 16:13

Well it works for my similar-aged DC! I love my DC and they do lovely things. But sometimes they have to be instructed to do things for their own good, and walking is good gentle exercise for you both and clears the mind. We can't go every day, sometimes the weather is too bad. But if its cold we wrap up, and if there has been something difficult that day, or we've had a trickier weekend, I make sure we do it.

After a few days he will be looking forward to it. I would certainly avoid areas where they thought they were going to be 'seen by people they know' if they were anxious about this, and I would walk from the house. No going in the car. No big deal. Shoes on, coat on, lock the door and go.

It's my aim to get a bit of a pre-historic reset every day. Humans are meant to walk and talk.

JKRowlingSuperfan · 28/09/2020 22:06

I have a dodgy hip, @concernedaboutwarrington, so no hour-long walks each evening for me. On days when I go in to the office, I'd also be lucky to be home much before 8, never mind 7. I try to do regular yoga and occasionally DD will join in, but not very often.

I'm really against giving up on the music: she does enjoy it (she'd enjoy it more if she could sing in her choir or play in a group, but please God those things will be possible again next year), and if she gives it up she won't have any hobbies at all. She does practice eventually every day because she knows I mean it when I say I'll cancel the lessons if she doesn't.

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changednamealways · 29/09/2020 00:12

I feel sorry for this child. Sounds like she's not perfect and her real human emotions and struggles annoy you.

MeridaTheBold · 29/09/2020 00:29

she's going to be an adult who contributes nothing worthwhile to the world
Do you have anxiety? Because this catastrophising is completely out of proportion to what your DD is doing.
The issue isn't the gaming. It's your micro-managing and your close identification with your DD's achievements and failings.
Two pieces of wise advice I read on MN may help.
Firstly your DC is not you. They do not exist to reflect well or badly on you.
Secondly parent for the age of child that you have. At 10 you should start to give her more autonomy to manage her time and homework. If that means some work is poorer, then she will learn she has to act differently to do better.
My DSIS was similar to you as a parent.The problem was that when her focus slipped because she had issues at work, her DC's schoolwork, instruments plummeted too. They didn't know how to self-motivate. Their journey to adulthood and fulfilling careers was slow and tortuous. As adults, they struggle with how their DM 'managed' them and their work.

corythatwas · 29/09/2020 08:28

So, actually, she is doing a hobby and she does practise. She is motivated enough to go and do what she's told when the threat of cancelling lessons is raised.

This really doesn't sound very catastrophic to me at all, OP. It is normal to have to badger a 10yo a bit. Like clearing up poonamies or dealing with toddler tantrums, this is something you take on when you have a child.

However, self-fulfilling prophecies are a powerful thing. If you believe that her slight laziness means she will never contribute anything worthwhile to the world, then there is a good chance that she will internalise that, make it who she is.

Live in the moment. Don't make depressing forecasts about the future, be mildly annoyed about something mildly annoying.

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