Is this standard at nurseries?

[otterbaby]

FTM here starting to look around at nurseries...we will be sending our daughter to nursery full time when she's around 9-10 months old.

It appears as though in our area, the standard age group for her would be 6 months - 2 years.

What I have noticed and is bothering me a bit, is that most of them seem to advertise a 2-course lunch, with the second course being dessert. Is this normal? It's not just fruit, it's things like chocolate cake, ice cream, jelly, bananas and custard, etc. I'm not really keen on my baby having dessert after lunch on a daily basis. If I want her to have something sweet, I'd like to do it on my own terms. And having it every day (for lunch, no less) takes away from the idea of it being a "treat".

This then begs the question, does that make me the witchy mother who has to stipulate that I don't want her to be given these desserts and instead she can have fruit or yogurt? And cue meltdowns when her friends get chocolate cake and she gets an apple?

What is everyone else's experiences?

I just want to weigh in from my own personal experience growing up. Both my sister and I were never allowed pizzas/McD's/sugary stuff etc when we were growing up. When we both went to uni we both independantly 'discovered' these types of foods and put on a load of weight. I think had they been normalised growing up as part of a healthy diet this wouldnt have been the case.

My son is only 4.5months, but I wont be cutting out any food group at all, or attaching any sort of condition to foods.

You're a biology teacher who is against giving small children fruit?

no, I am against giving it to babies instead of a pudding. Children should have some fruit, and some puddings.

Put people need to realise the high levels of fructose in fruit, it is the most damaging sugar, and the one most closely linked to developing diabetes.

So giving fruit instead of a pudding to a baby and calling it healthier makes no sense

Neither are healthy. Neither are dangerous in moderation either.

I was just making a general statement about children’s yoghurts. I don’t know what they serve at nursery. I often see mentioned as good ideas those squeezy yoghurt pouches or little yoghurts for children’s packed lunch at school, so perhaps I assumed wrongly that was what was meant. Natural yoghurt or Greek yoghurt is fine.

Anyway, we eat dessert/pudding most days, and I have been the same weight my adult life, with a BMI of 20, and I am in my 50s. So do my parents, both slim and fit in their mid-80s. It was normal for me growing up. No obesity here. As I said, my DD is a professional ballet dancer. No obesity there either. A dessert does not always equate to sticky toffee pudding. There’s a whole world of joyful desserts beyond plain fruit or yoghurt, nice as they may be. The dessert is not the treat part of a meal, the reward for making it through the main course. It’s just part of the meal. (We also often have a starter too...)

It’s always been like this. I just requested only fruit and sometimes yoghurt (it was the sugary type) and they were happy to follow that. I wasn’t the only btw.

I have to say my jaw is on the floor reading some of these replies! This is a far cry from the usual Mumsnet boasting about toddlers who only eat quinoa, broccoli and hummus!

OP, if you don't want your kid to have sweet stuff at nursery, just tell them and they will give her something else. I was also shocked when I saw what was on the menu at ours. They never mentioned that they were less sweet than "adult" sweet puddings, so I figured it's just smaller portions. He gets sweet foods at home, but only occasionally. I really don't think there is an issue with limiting unhealthy foods. It's not the same as using it as a reward or completely banning it. I think the posters saying that it's just another food that should be eaten in moderation are mistaking teaching healthy food choices with this.

I am no nutritionist, but I doubt that naturally occurring fructose is worse than added sugar

FWIW, we got a biscuit and chocolate after school each day and yoghurt for pudding after dinner. I am class II obese, having been obese from around age 10. My brother and sister are both slim. There's a bit more to it than access to treats when it comes to the causes of obesity.

I think the idea that pudding is normal after every meal is very culturally determined. It is definitely not normal in my home country. Incidentally, that country also has a far lower rate of obesity...

@mosquitofeast it's misleading to say that fructose is the most damaging type of sugar, and actually there is some disagreement about the nature of it's interaction with diabetes

Like everything fruit needs to be in moderation (and different fruits have different glycemic indices) but while it may contain naturally occurring sugars it also contains many phytonutrients and micronutrients which are essential for health as part of a bigger picture of overall health (and not just weight). So, the sugar alongside does at least count for something.

A piece of cake or jelly (incidentally apparently sweetened with fructose!) will probably contain very little in the way of phytonutrients or micronutrients. Yes, cake may contain fat, but there are other usually better sources of that (I'm another who usually gives natural unsweetened yoghurt only, sometimes with blueberries for example)

So maybe you don't need to give fruit instead of a pudding, but I don't know why different courses at all. Fruit should feature as a component of baby/toddler size equivalent of 5 a day alongside veg (mostly vegetables would be even better although the fibre can be too much)

That's why the NHS guidance on healthy meals for babies and toddlers refers to lots of things including fats, but doesn't suggest that babies need puddings

All this said I stand by what I mentioned about allowing this at nursery if it were my child as it sounds like they are small low sugar portions and probably do have some value in so far as we can all discuss ideal meals but what a baby or toddler eats is a different matter! I just don't think sweet things in general are a staple (aside from some fruit as mentioned) although I agree completely they shouldn't be demonised or used as a reward, and should be treated like food. As I said I don't think I could afford for us to have puddings every day and we spend quite a lot on food. In the same way I couldn't afford other luxury foods (lobster!) every day but have nothing majorly against it

As a pp said, anecdata on personal BMI etc isn't very helpful as there are so many variables. One PP above said they always ate puddings and their BMI is 20, I have never eaten a daily pudding and my BMI is 20 too.

Fructose is not used for energy, it’s metabolised by the liver into fat stores.

I am no nutritionist, but I doubt that naturally occurring fructose is worse than added sugar

This is a typical misinformed response.

There is no virtue whatsoever in a component being "natural" but many people have been brainwashed, (largely by multinational corporate advertising,) that "natural" is somehow better than "artificial" or "added" or "chemical", without any understanding at all of what "natural" "artificial" "added" or "chemical" even mean.

I don't mean to pick on letmegetthisrightasawoman particularly, but it would be interesting if they could articulate exactly what they think "natural" means, and what has given them the impression that this is a positive attribute?

Why would anyone think "naturally occurring fructose" can;t be worse than "added sugar".

Just because the words "naturally occurring" have been placed in front of it, and advertisers have been selling this big for years.

Would you feel the same about the "naturally occurring" arsenic in some vegetables?

@mosquitofeast but "naturally occurring" fructose in whole fruit is completely different metabolically from sugar in a form such as a juice or a processed food because of the other components that occur along with it

The slow digestion of fibre along with chewing resistance etc means that it's released to the liver slowly and not all at once

Fructose in isolation would be one thing (albeit there's still controversy over its effect on diabetes) but as part of a whole fruit it has a very different impact

@mosquitofeast what @whatdoesthatannoyingfoxsay said. Surely an apple is healthier with a certain amount of fructose is healthier than a biscuit with the same amount of added sugar? And an apple would also be more filling?

Btw, that is not to suggest that fruit is perfect. I am not denying that there are sugars in fruit, I'm just disputing the idea that sugary fruit is equal to sugary sweets/ biscuits/ pudding.

but "naturally occurring" fructose in whole fruit is completely different metabolically from sugar

yes, completely different and far more dangerous, in terms of risk of diabetes, etc

I remember seeing this on menus when researching nurseries and being a bit surprised. Our nursery doesn’t do this, and while it definitely wasn’t a deciding factor in choosing nurseries, I’m quite pleased they don’t.

The kids get fruit after lunch every day and a yoghurt with the fruit once a week. Afternoon snack rotates between fruit, veg with dip and crackers with cheese etc. They don’t get anything after their dinner.

Had he gone to a nursery which served regular cake type puddings, I’d have let him have them, but he was over a year old. Under a year, I might have been tempted to request only fruit or yoghurt too.

I agree that nursery cakes are nothing like our cakes, but it does seem to set an idea that duly cake desserts is normal and they won’t always have access to nursery cheer cooked low sugar cakes. So do they just keep the habit when they’re older and default onto eating full sugar cakes? I don’t know.

However DS does has something sweet at home after both lunch and dinner. He likes berries best, so it’s usually a variety of those rather than the higher sugar fruits, although he does have grapes sometimes. After lunch, it’s only fruit, after dinner it’s usually fruit plus a small portion of something else - usually a yoghurt or a shot glass size portion of custard. We used to give Greek yoghurt but somehow we’ve slipped into getting petite Filous which are very sugary, so need to adjust that. If we’ve been baking (which is only a few times a month), then he can have a bit of that for pudding. We made cherry cakes this week so he’s had half of one twice this week, no more now as mummy has eaten the last one!

Anyway, I’m certainly not anti-pudding but I don’t think it’s normal or healthy to eat cake every day, even “low sugar” ones as it lays a infest for when they’re older. Equally, if his nursery did serve cakes, I wouldn’t prevent him having them, I’d just cut down on cakes at home.

Most pretentious sentence I think I'll write on Mumsnet but our DD goes to an organic nursery, so there wouldn't be anything like this on the menu.

They have snacks throughout the day and their meals, but no puddings. And the snacks / food are all healthy. She absolutely loves it, always has extra according to the app.

If you're concerned have a look for local organic nurseries. It's the kind of thing I would have rolled my eyes at before having a baby, but it really is such a brilliant setting.

“ but "naturally occurring" fructose in whole fruit is completely different metabolically from sugar

yes, completely different and far more dangerous, in terms of risk of diabetes, etc”

It is not as simple as saying fructose is good or bad but about the context in which it is consumed. Fructose used as a sweetener- emerging evidence that it is bad and drives up insulin resistance (big factor in type 2 diabetes).

Consumed in fruit slightly more complex issue. When consumed as whole raw fruit- it is not bad and actually a healthy choice. Encouraged by diabetes U.K. as part of a balanced diet to lower risk of heart disease (one of the big problems of diabetes is increased heart disease). However processed into a smoothie or fruit juice it is not good as roughage is removed, meaning the sugar enters the bloodstream quicker and this leads to sugar spikes. This is bad and can contribute to the development of type 2 diabetes.

Pudding can form part of a balanced diet, low sugar or no added sugar options are better but pudding is not better for you than say a eating a raw apple and natural yogurt.

@mosquitofeast

Yes I’m sure most people with diabetes have diabetes because they have eaten too much fruit!

@OverTheRainbow88 I’m quite shocked by mosquitofeast’s pronouncement. Her sentence implies that fruit causes diabetes- maybe she means fructose in processed food but it comes across as eating fruit itself which just isn’t true. If it is the later then quite worrying that she is a biology teacher.