child's friend hit me - WWYD

[msflibble]

Background: at my children's daycare are 2 siblings, a girl and boy. The family also lives in the same housing complex as us, with 3 shared courtyards. The little girl is 2 and a half, delightful, well-behaved for a toddler, and best buddies with my DS who is 3. The boy is 4, can be likeable and is obviously sensitive but uncommunicative. He is also naughty, defiant and pushes boundaries a lot. My DD is 5 and although she can sometimes play with him, she doesn't like him. He hits sometimes and takes toys without asking. We are good friends with the parents who are lovely people that we get on with well.

Since before lockdown (not during it) and now that it has eased, we've been doing a sort of childcare tandem with this family - we're in Germany, where things have been greatly relaxed recently, and our kids are back at the daycare with them 2 days a week anyway. We take turns to watch the kids at the sandpit, or take them to a playground or on bike rides. Sometimes they come to the house as well. The other afternoon they asked us to look after the boy but not the girl and right from the beginning I could see he was on the warpath. He was being deliberately annoying, screaming loudly during a game with my son, even after we told him to stop. Then he and my son found some badminton racquets outside that belonged to other children and refused to give them back. I had to physically take one from him after he ignored my repeated calm requests to return them, at which point he hit me. This is always a red line for me; I tend to keep my cool nearly all the time with children, but when they hit me I lose it. I hissed a stern reprimand at him and he ran off.

I came to him at the sandpit and took a gentler tone, explaining that if he couldn't behave himself he could no longer visit us. We called his mother and asked her to pick him up. After this he was even more defiant; he was trying to break light fittings outside, he deliberately took my son's favourite toy away and pushed my son over when he came to take it back, he was throwing sand, putting sand all over his own head, and finally he started throwing gravel. When I told him to stop he ignored me and I did lose it again I'm afraid. He was looking me in the eye whilst doing all of these things, it was unbelievably maddening. I told him I was seriously angry and that that was it, he couldn't visit us anymore. I still feel like I meant it. I don't want to look after a child who is deliberately defiant, who treats our authority with contempt, who hits me and who upsets my own kids. But.. his little sister is DS's best friend, we love her, and we love the parents and don't want sourness between us.

What do I do? Did I overreact? How does one handle this behaviour in someone else's child? Or is it better to just say to the parents that we cannot look after him if he won't listen to us?

No, I don't think their parenting is very poor. I do however think it's inconsistent because they seem to be out of sync with each other in their parenting styles. They're responsible people and I know my kids are safe with them. I think most parents struggle to know what to do when a child is acting out - it doesn't mean they are neglectful or irresponsible.

It’s really hard to be consistent with a child that may have undiagnosed need. You’re constantly questioning yourself and it’s harder not to react emotionally - as you’ve discovered.

@TheLashKingOfScotland you've hit the nail on the head really. The most disturbing part was my own reaction. I think that day he came to us already with a bee in his bonnet over something and I simply wasn't equipped to handle such challenging behaviour.

In the past I have always been as gentle as possible with him - my DH is very stern and harsh with him and I can see it's counterproductive, I know that a gentler approach yields better results.. but I was just pushed too far. I can see he's been getting far too comfortable with us. He was better behaved at the beginning, when the arrangement first began.

Bear in mind his dad may have been a little boy just like this! There is an unfortunate spiral you can get into where you get more and more rigid with the child. They then never develop skills they need to calm themselves down and compromise.

The behaviour you described sounds like a meltdown, he's overwhelm by his own emotions, everything he does makes it worse and he doesn't know how to rescue the situation.

As mum to a little boy just like that, I learned to diffuse, distract and generally avoid confrontation. In that situation I'd have attempted some kind of distraction "quick let's go and hide behind the tree and surprise jimmy, we'll put the racquet back in a minute!" Then quietly put them back or send a reliable child to put them back later.

Before anyone announces I've spoilt my child and he needs to learn to do as he's told (as some did at the time) he's grown into a lovely reliable responsible hardworking adult and I stand by my methods!

It sounds as though you and your DH are replicating the see-saw behaviour of his parents so he's consistently seeing inconsistency. But your triggers are your's not the 4-yr-olds. It's tempting to make it about his parents or his attitude but actually it's about your response to him. We're all overwhelmed atm. We're in the middle of a pandemic. The positive is that you've recognised that you can't watch him anymore.
It may be worth spending some time working out how to manage defiant behaviour better. Your DCs aren't being defiant now but they may become so and this has given you the opportunity to work on better coping mechanisms.

I think most people get annoyed when a child behaves like this and even though he is 4, it’s not acceptable. He desperately needs nursery and his parents might well have problems funding child care so do need to seek help. I simply would say it’s not possible to have him at the moment. Perhaps kindergarten and school will help him. What is he like at “day care”?

You "lost it"? You're as bad as him. Adults should always maintain the higher ground. Take him , sit him inside and sit with him if need be.

If a child presses your buttons over many months it’s worth reflecting on why you did “lose it”. However not putting yourself in that position again is probably the wisest action. We don’t all like all children. It’s not obligatory. Teachers struggle with this. You don’t have to sit with him and ignore the other DC. It upsets the dynamic and it’s ok not to have this child in your home until you are happy. Your DH clearly finds it stressful too.

OP you say you have read extensively about ASD, can you tell me what you think ASD is please

"we leave the door open for our own children to come and go, so he just barges in regularly, takes his shoes off and goes into the kids room, chucking books on the floor and generally making a mess."

You have a childcare arrangement so presumably you sometimes allow him in your house?
So he maybe just doesn't understand that when door is open he doexnt go in.

Hey at least he takes his shoes off !

My ds (asd etc) would have done this.

Close your doors .

@WeMarchOn ASD can be many things from what I've read, but this child doesn't fit the profile for a child with high-functioning autism. He's very verbal and chatty, he's very social, he doesn't have any obsessions, he loves role play, he doesn't stim at all, he doesn't mind changes to his routine.

He just has issues with dealing with his own emotions, he's constantly testing boundaries. He doesn't know how to talk about feeling sad or angry and he responds by lashing out instead. There may be a name for this but I don't think it's ASD or even any sort of disorder. Who knows though, I'm not a professional, and it's not my job to diagnose him - it's for his mum and dad to discover if he does indeed have SN.

@EnoughAlready2020 it's easy to say that, but I'm afraid I have a visceral reaction to being hit. It's something I cannot tolerate.

When I say "I lost it" I don't mean I screamed at him. I wheeled round and fairly quietly but fiercely hissed something like "that is not OK, you do not ever hit people". The reason it was such a shock for him was that normally I'd take a deep breath and say it in a much gentler way. But when someone raises a hand to me, even if it's a child, I just have a bad reaction. Always have.

Idk, maybe sometimes it's not such a bad thing to have an honest reaction, as long as it's very rare? Things like this need to come out into the open otherwise his problems will never be dealt with.

My son is also extremely chatty and sociable, can cope with changes to his routine and doesn’t really stim, and he’s still autistic. I’m not saying this child is, but I wouldn’t rule it out based him lacking some stereotyped behaviours.

I’d also say a 4 year old who is overwhelmed by and struggles to process big emotions isn’t unusual even for a NT child, especially the downward spiral of behaviour you describe. It sounds as if the men in his life (his own father and your DH) are quite rigid and shouty with him which won’t exactly be helping to model more healthy ways of processing emotions. If you can bring yourself to, I agree that a more in-depth chat with his mum might be in order.

I'm sorry but that's not correct

"when someone raises a hand to me, even if it's a child, I"

A small child cannot raise a hand to hit you as you describe.
Your sentence implies a larger adult looming over you and coming after you with the power to really hurt you.

Presumably this 4 year old is half your height?
He lashed out. Like a reflex. After you took something off him ....
It triggered you
But look at his size compared to you. He isn't an adult.

Anyway maybe try talk to his parents on calm day and decide way forward.
What are the rules about coming in the house for example.
Maybe make a big sign STOP NO ENTRY red no ENTRY sign with green go you can come in on reverse....you both explain the rules to him put out when he isnt to come in the house because it s not the day for it. And agree if he breaks the rule his parent takes him home immediately.

In the end the right move for the OP - who is only a family friend, not a parent nor official carer or nursery worker or school teacher for this child - is to stop sharing childcare with this family.

The OP is out of her depth on the practical side and trying to armchair diagnose/ rule out diagnosis - this is not helpful given her relationship to the family is not in any way official, professional or parental.

The OP and her DH are probably making things worse for this little boy, not better - they're adding yet another set of inconsistent authority figures to his already inconsistent mix - no wonder the child is struggling to know which way is up!

The OP and her DH are also forcing their own children to be in close company with a challenging child all the time!

OP's kids go to the other children's parents when the other children are not with the OP and her kids, or all the children are at KiTa together!

The OP's eldest are with this child far more than the OP is - something she is missing or ignoring! If she finds the little boy hard so do his peers most likely, and OP is putting her children in his presence because it's convenient to share childcare for her own children. The OP's children are being sent to a shouty dad and overwhelmed mum and child who physically assaults them. The KiTa staff should be able to deal with this properly but there's every chance his parents are not protecting the OP's children very well from their own child because they are overwhelmed.

BubblesBuddy I agree with you that the OP shouldn'tput herself in the position of being responsible for her neighbor's son again, and wanted to add that if they're in Germany it is highly unlikely the parents are struggling to fund childcare, especially for a nearly 5 year old. State childcare is heavily subsidised in Germany and in many areas it's free for the poorest and on a staggered scale according to income - even full price is very heavily subsidised and the state is paying about 2/3. Once children are in their last preschool year it is completely free for all income groups in many areas, and siblings are usually yet further discounted.

It’s odd op, you’re a grown up, but every post is about how this Four year old child did wrong, which he did, but he’s four. Your own behaviour though, is blithely passed over as I’m this is who I am and that’s it.

If it was a twelve year old who hit you or someone older, fair enough, but he’s a tiny four year old.

Sometimes children hit. They are tiny their brains not fully developed, and yes many at four can’t manage their emotions. You write like you think he should be able to.

Gosh, some adults can’t manage their emotions and reactions. As you have clearly demonstrated.

But what stands out is the fact you can’t is apparently ok. The fact this little boy can’t isn’t.

I think it's fine to admit you feel out of your depth here. You can't fix the issues that this family are having and I think you're right in that it needs a professional opinion

@Bluntness100
I've said it wasn't my finest hour. I didn't scream at him, I told him sternly it was not ok to hit me, which it isn't. I'm not sure why this is considered a hanging offence; I'm absolutely out of my depth with this child, which is why I know I can't take care of him again.
I'm also fully aware that he is a tiny child who cannot regulate his emotions, I do not blame him for this, but I also know I cannot fix the underlying issues behind his behaviour and nor is it my responsibility to do so.