child's friend hit me - WWYD

[msflibble]

Background: at my children's daycare are 2 siblings, a girl and boy. The family also lives in the same housing complex as us, with 3 shared courtyards. The little girl is 2 and a half, delightful, well-behaved for a toddler, and best buddies with my DS who is 3. The boy is 4, can be likeable and is obviously sensitive but uncommunicative. He is also naughty, defiant and pushes boundaries a lot. My DD is 5 and although she can sometimes play with him, she doesn't like him. He hits sometimes and takes toys without asking. We are good friends with the parents who are lovely people that we get on with well.

Since before lockdown (not during it) and now that it has eased, we've been doing a sort of childcare tandem with this family - we're in Germany, where things have been greatly relaxed recently, and our kids are back at the daycare with them 2 days a week anyway. We take turns to watch the kids at the sandpit, or take them to a playground or on bike rides. Sometimes they come to the house as well. The other afternoon they asked us to look after the boy but not the girl and right from the beginning I could see he was on the warpath. He was being deliberately annoying, screaming loudly during a game with my son, even after we told him to stop. Then he and my son found some badminton racquets outside that belonged to other children and refused to give them back. I had to physically take one from him after he ignored my repeated calm requests to return them, at which point he hit me. This is always a red line for me; I tend to keep my cool nearly all the time with children, but when they hit me I lose it. I hissed a stern reprimand at him and he ran off.

I came to him at the sandpit and took a gentler tone, explaining that if he couldn't behave himself he could no longer visit us. We called his mother and asked her to pick him up. After this he was even more defiant; he was trying to break light fittings outside, he deliberately took my son's favourite toy away and pushed my son over when he came to take it back, he was throwing sand, putting sand all over his own head, and finally he started throwing gravel. When I told him to stop he ignored me and I did lose it again I'm afraid. He was looking me in the eye whilst doing all of these things, it was unbelievably maddening. I told him I was seriously angry and that that was it, he couldn't visit us anymore. I still feel like I meant it. I don't want to look after a child who is deliberately defiant, who treats our authority with contempt, who hits me and who upsets my own kids. But.. his little sister is DS's best friend, we love her, and we love the parents and don't want sourness between us.

What do I do? Did I overreact? How does one handle this behaviour in someone else's child? Or is it better to just say to the parents that we cannot look after him if he won't listen to us?

I explained everything to his mum when she came to get him, yes. Well, not every single detail, but the main one about him hitting and just ignoring us. My DH was very blunt in his request for an early pickup, and it's the first time we've ever done it. He's never been this bad before, though my DH has been losing his patience with him for quite some time now. She was characteristically muted in response. We mused together for a bit about why he was so difficult that day and then she left.

I haven't yet told her that we won't let him visit. I don't know how I'm going to do that. I'm dreading it actually.

So many issues here...

Shouting at a child isn't great parenting even if it's yours so I wouldn't get on your high horse about being the better parent when you have yelled at a little kid. "Losing it" and telling him he won't be able to visit again because he's been naughty will have absolutely no effect on his behaviour except to make it worse. You should have kept your cool and then spoken to the parents about your concerns and your boundaries around what type of behaviour you expect if you are to be able to look after their son and keep him safe. You could have asked how they tend to manage his behaviour - do they have tips that help. Most likely his parents are using the same approach as you which is getting angry and making inconsistent ultimatums, which of course will exacerbate it.

Also, it sounds as though he COULD have something like autism. Looking you the eye and having feelings and empathy DOES NOT mean he can't be autistic. He may not be of course but it's not that relevant. Children with autism often respond well to parenting that typical children also respond well to - predictable, calm, consistent, praise, clear boundaries and consequences.

I doubt it is solely a parenting issue because they have a younger child who is fine.

She is probably highly aware of his problems and is embarrassed and worried, not to mention stressed and tired.

The least you can do if you are good friends is sit her down, explain your predicament calmly and listen with empathy to her experience of him. Be clear with what you are able to cope with but ask if there's anything you can do to help.

It doesn't sound to me like he's the one with the empathy problem...

He is not yours to “fix”. Just say if he comes to play one of his parents must come too because you can’t manage him without them. The rest of it is just parenting arrogance. They probably have similar doubts and disgust at aspects of your parenting.

@msflibble have you ever actually said something along the lines of "I think your child has special needs especially because he's non-verbal at nearly 5 years old. It seems like he may need a specialist to help him and to help you understand how to address him." ?

How do you think the parents would react if you said that? At a certain point they're going to have to face up to it. If you're so close as friends, you and your husband may be the breaking point for them to finally do something about their son.

My daughter had a a friend she didn't like, forced on her by me. Because I'm friends with her mother. The child was always difficult but I coped. When the child turned 8 I felt that I could no longet cope with the friends child anymore, as she wouldn't listen, started screaming, using abusive language and actually ran away at one point. I had to catch her and drag her to her mothers house! I explained that I couldn't cope with her and couldn't keep her safe. My friend then told me that she has been diagnosed as autistic, but she didn't want to tell anyone outside of school?! I couldn't understand why she didn't tell me so that I could understand and deal with her better. Anyway once I said I couldn't have her anymore, the friendship died unfortunately. They live over the road and I can see that her behaviour is worse now e.g throwing her shoes over the fence and screaming. It's a shame really. My daughter was please that she no longer had to play with her. Perhaps you can suggest only getting together when you and the other parent stays?

because he's non-verbal at nearly 5 years old
OP said he was uncommunicative not non verbal.

@PastMyBestBeforeDate thank you for that correction. I think I assumed it was similar or the same in my mind.

@penguinsbegin yes, it feels like everyone is tip toeing around this to the detriment of the child but maybe the parents want reassurance that's not just them or that it's in their head.

Essentially, permission to seek help.

You are an adult and you say that you lost it twice - so you struggled to control your emotions.

He is 4 and he lost it and hit out and was defiant.

Adults are usually more able to control their tempers than children so hopefully he will forgive you for losing it and you will forgive him and be more understanding of the very young age and emotional maturity?

Just a different perspective?

:) Jings. My autistic dc is non-verbal at times so I see it a particular way that others might not. OP may of course mean non-verbal in which case I agree with you.

msflibble when you say he doesn't communicate, you don't mean he's actually non verbal do you?

I'm assuming you just mean he acts/ hits/ pushes/ throws instead of talking in upsetting or conflict situations?

His parent's conflicting styles is probably a large part of the problem - Kindergarten will be different again, and he's in your care too and getting yet annother approach... Being home only with his parents for the last two months may well have made things worse.

My main point to you, as after all you are not the parent and not realistically going to solve the little boy's problems, is:

You do not have to provide childcare for the siblings of your child's friends.

Your younger child is friends with the younger child of the neighbor family.

This does not mean your older one is in any way what so ever obligated to be friends with their older child.

It does not mean you are in any way obligated to have both children in your care.

You need to end the childcare element of your arrangement with this family.

That means you don't send your older child to them either - your older child isn't friends with their older child.

The younger children are friends. This does not mean the same thing as a childcare situation, the younger two should be able to have a playdate, which is different.

Tell the neighbor family that the younger two are great freinds, which is so lovely, but the older two don't really have much in common or get alone that well at the moment. You really hope the younger two can continue their lovely freindship and play together in the communal area lots, but the childcare element is too anstrengend at the moment.

I had to be incredibly blunt with a German neighbor years ago in a vaguely similar situation (younger two kids were freinds, older two were not really. Made worse by older two both being girls so expected to be friends.) The older neighbor child wasn't aggressive, just not interested in my DD - she followed me around all the time, my DD tried to play with her and was rejected. If I'd been doing paid childcare I would obviously have worked around that, but I wasn't - I was going about my business and had not set time aside to entertain somebody else's child. The neighbor used to send both kids over "to play" - my DD never wanted to go to hers to play because there was no friendship and nobody there to play with! In the end I had to bluntly tell the neighbor mother that the older two just weren't friends at the moment and I didn't have time to give her older child my full attention, so please keep her at home! The youner two are still freinds, years later, and the older two haven't spoken in years! The neighbor mum and I are still on freindly terms though she was initially taken aback.

Is it my duty to tell them what I can plainly see, or is it best to let them discover it themselves?

No, it isn’t.

The only error you made IMO was telling a small child if they don’t behave in the way you want them to, they can’t visit, especially if you suspect they have SN. A child can’t rationalise that and if he genuinely can’t control his behaviour then the acting out that followed is quite typical. How would you feel as an adult if you were told that who you were wasn’t good enough?

Explain to the parents that you struggled with his behaviour and either ask them if there is a better way to deal with it or, if they have no advice, tell them you won’t be able to look after him.

Whether the child has additional needs or just crap parents, I would just say you can’t handle his behaviour and don’t feel able to babysit any more.

I don't think there is any reason to assume that this child has special needs other than the need for good parenting.

A friend of mine had four children of whom one was extraordinarily difficult and the others lovely. It was always understood that I couldn't look after the difficult one as I just don't have the character.

Could you say to her that you can't look after him as you cannot keep him safe? Because if he won't pay attention to him, you would be hard put to keep him safe.

I work in mental health and very familiar with disorganised attachment disorders - which is what you are describing and is the outcome of inconsistent parenting.

The thing that doesn’t add up here is that the little girl is totally normal. They are both subject to the same parents and therefore parenting styles so you’d expect behavioural similarities- with some deviation due to age related developmental stages. This does lead me to believe the little boy might have an underlying condition which his parents need to address.

As it’s the first time you’ll have really discussed it with his parents, is there an alternative to totally banning him from your house? Ie “hello friends, I just wanted to talk to you about childcare arrangements following the incident the other day. We want to be supportive of you but cannot continue unless there is a plan for managing his behaviour, what do you suggest? Have you thought about consulting a professional or using a behavioural chart which we could follow?”

There’s loads of practical behaviour tools such as “family rules” and “good behaviour charts” which would spell out to him what’s expected and give an incentive to behave/consequences for not.

You might not want to do this but sounds like a difficult situation.

Your title is a bit misleading... could have said "four year old reacted to being told off by hitting me"

What happened was you asked him to give up something then he didn't then you took something from him physically and he reacted
You told him off he reacted.

He didn't just come and beat you.

Hd didn't react in a good way but he is four and may of may not haveissues and comes from a house where the male parent shouts and maybe also lashes out who knows.
Child behaviours is complex.but is always communication and reactive...why does he react this way? Needs assessment...

But bottom line is that you can say you are unable to care for him due to his needs.

Encourage parents to speak to his nursery teachers for advice on handling his behaviour .
Or ask parent how they deal.

If you cant agree you can't look after him

This may lose you the contact with the sibling.

@PastMyBestBeforeDate thanks for being understanding. And I love your username, BTW.

@JingsMahBucket ah sorry I didn't clarify properly. He's very verbal, but when he is upset he doesn't verbally communicate or even cry, he just shuts down completely and his face becomes blank.

I don't think he is autistic from what I have seen - I have read extensively about ASD and how it presents in young children. I just think he struggles to handle his emotions and I think when he feels rejected and isolated he lashes out. It's not super unusual in a child his age, especially a sensitive one... but what is really hard to handle is the fact that he seems to actively look for ways to push other people's buttons, then he gets violent when there is a negative reaction.

And we're unable to avoid him without making things extremely awkward. We all went home together from the daycare today, because there are only 5 kids going there due to corona. He got upset over a toy that another child wanted back and poked DS in the eyes deliberately, even though DS wasn't involved in the dispute.

Yes, I lost my rag the other day - definitely wasn't my finest hour. But you have to understand this comes from a build-up of emotion. We've been helping take care of him for some time now and he just always finds a way to make trouble or hurt someone. I have always been gentle and patient in the past whilst being as authoritative as I can but I feel like he was just going too far the other day. He wouldn't listen to a thing I said. And to tell him he can't visit anymore is just honesty. He's been taking liberties at our place for a long time - we are ground floor, and we leave the door open for our own children to come and go, so he just barges in regularly, takes his shoes off and goes into the kids room, chucking books on the floor and generally making a mess. I've just had enough.

His mum today seemed to get it, without me saying anything more than I already have. He tried to come in and she told him he couldn't and that he had to stay outside. He sneaked back in and chucked a football hard at a light fitting. This is what we're dealing with, it's relentless really and I just can't face it anymore. I didn't want to raise it with her, as another poster pointed out she is obviously mortified and feeling really shit about it. I wanted to speak frankly but seeing her face the words just stuck in my throat. They are loving parents who do the best for their kids, I think they must both be feeling so helpless right now.

We just have to not allow him in the house, and if we're asked to do childcare we have to explain why we can't agree to it. I can't say more to the parents than that. I can't imagine how I'd feel if someone tried to tell me what I was doing wrong as a parent - god knows there are plenty of things!

@Incrediblytired the reason I think he is like this while his sister isn't is that he's the first child and so harbours some residual feelings of anger over the birth of his younger sibling. DD went through a very angry phase after DS was born and is still more sensitive and emotionally demanding. It may well also just be partly his inborn personality too, and then the inconsistency of the parents' approach doesn't help I guess.

What I don't really understand is that you describe this parenting that you clearly think is very poor, even wanting, but you say you trade off childcare - so you have them look after your children?

I think part of the issue is that you're unhappy with how you dealt with him. That's created the flashpoint, not his behaviour iyswim because from your descriptions, it sounds as though he regularly behaves that way.
If he is sensitive and has a tendency to shut down when overwhelmed then I think his DM's approach may be better. What you're seeing as her being lax may be her veering towards positive reinforcement rather than punishment. If a child can't regulate their emotions, is prone to being sensitive and anxious and is regularly being labelled as naughty, etc, then they usually respond better to positive reinforcement than punishment.
You don't need to say anything to them. They will be aware of his behaviour. But, since you lost your temper twice with him, it is probably best that you don't watch him. As a PP said, that may impact on your friendship with the family and between the girls. Sometimes, that's unavoidable.

I think people need to remember this is a tiny four year old.

Op, I don’t understand your red line on a four year old hitting you and how it triggers you as it does, as you’ve not explained it.

But I think this is a difficult child and he triggers you and you’re unable to manage when he behaves as he does. I think you need to explain that to the couple. It’s both of you, his behaviour is difficult, he pushes boundaries and you’re unable to cope with that emotionally and it causes reactions in you that are discomfiting for you and for him.

And simply leave it there. I don’t think it’s in either your or this child’s interests for you to care for him again. It’s sad but you need to do what’s best for both you and the child.

When you say you hissed a reprimand... I wonder why he gets your back up so much. This might be difficult as the years roll on.