When should you be able to leave your child alone?

[MrsMarvel]

I have started a new thread which started on the Madeleine McCann thread so the crusaders / strikers don't miss out.

Clarice Bean has the right idea! I will encourage my two to go to uni in another city .... but I will miss them like hell, and I will cry. . They are 16 and 15 now and such fun! Well, most of the time!!

"Is it any wonder today?s society is the way it is when children are being brought up to do what they like and that is exactly what children do when they don?t have any parental control "

Sorry. I find myself getting irritated by any post that begins 'is it any wonder today's society is the way it is...' Children being left on their own for a short period of time does not neccessarily equate to children being 'brought up to what they like'. In fact IME it's the children who are given a small measure of independence that learn to take responsiblity for themselves. Not being physically in the same place as a child does not mean they have no parental control. In fact if a parent is scared of leaving their kids alone under any circumstances in case they do something dreadful, there is a severe lack of parental control in the first place.

a previous thread on this subject here

i can't believe that anyone would think that leaving a child alone whilst they are in another biulding or another part of a large building ie. hotel, cruise ship, is ok. It consititues neglect in the eyes of the law. Just because you're onl holiday doesn't make it ok. What if the child started to choke or fell out of bed? It's completely selfish of the parents and to leave any child under the age of 5 alone is disgusting. I bet people would be taking a different stance if the McCanns were working class - people would be in uproar demanding that social services removed the children. Tells us a lot about society's values doesn't it? CHildren need to be protected and it's our responsiblity as parents to ensure this and not make them vulnerable and unsafe as the parents of madeline did.

I'm in the same camp as motheroftwoboys. Have left my children in hotel rooms while I went to eat dinner in the restaurant lots of times. Have left them in center parcs villas while I've gone to the next door villa to be with friends lots of times.My husband and I check on them regularly. Nothing bad has ever happened. Why would a child start choking when they are asleep? If they fell out of bed they might cry a bit but then get back into bed and go back to sleep. I've always left the door locked so no one could actually wonder off. I think people are too paranoid. You have to look at the relative risk and the actual likelihood of anything awful happening is imo very low.

dunga, it does not constitute neglect in the eyes of the law. that just uninformed judgemental claptrap. its a matter of personal choice and opinion and knowing your own children and your own circumstances, what is right for you and for them. pls, dont be so bloody sanctimonious!

From the NSPCC website:

" There is no UK law stating the age at which a child can be left at home alone. However, parents can be prosecuted for wilful neglect if they leave a child alone or unsupervised "in a manner likely to cause unnecessary suffering or injury to health" (Children and Young Persons Act 1933). "

Now we have to look for the definition of "unnecessary suffering".

alderberry- they could choke if they vomited, also sometimes sleeping children wake up

dunga- i agree.my ex left our 2 ds alone whilst he went to corner shop, aged 3 and 4. when i found out i went mad and told him he could only see them supervised, he took it to court the cafcass officer and judge agreed with me and now he can only see his kids under supervision of social worker. kids that young are so unpredictable u may think they will stay asleep or that all is safe but sometimes they wake unexpectedly and if anything like my son will find something dangerous. i think it totally unacceptable to leave young kids, its neglect

In the eyes of the law though, it's only when it's "likely to cause" unnecessary suffering etc.

When a child is asleep I'd say they're unlikely to vomit or choke unless they are ill. However, a child in a strange bedroom on holiday, I would say, is likely to wake up. Mine are anyway.

dunga and orangehead, do your children sleep in the same bedroom as you? Who watches them while you are asleep?

Well said evenhope and motheroftwoboys.

Under current (UK/anglo-saxon) society "rules", judging by what some are saying on here, our parents should have been reported to Social Services and most of us would have been brought up in care.

In Butlins/Pontins holiday camps, as a matter of routine children were left to sleep while the staff did regular check-ups (listening only), while the parents had meals at which children were not allowed.

Hotels had children's sittings - I can remember this at a hotel in Ibiza in about 1970. I'm sure we didn't have a babysitter - so where were we when Mum & Dad while Mum and Dad were having their meal? Up in our bedroom - me, c.9, db, c.7.
Nobody considered that neglectful then.

I profoundly disagree with Fin54 about the supposed reason for today's current ills. My personal view is that it is because we are mollycoddlying today's children, making them little emperors around whom our lives revolve, which is creating a generation of selfish, self-centred little tyrants. I realise of course no every child is like that - but it is a trend. Instead of respecting that we all have rights, children today think that life revolves around them.

And never leaving them for a minute, not giving them space to do things on their own - and to give them confidence that they can cope, is doing them a disservice in the long run.

Oh PrettyBird, I so agree with your last 2 paragraphs.

One of my points with ds (aged 8) is that our home is for all of us, we all need our space and our time to do the things we want to do, and we all have to take responsibility for ourselves and each other.
Hence Ds needs to start learning to get himself ready for bed while I clear up the kitchen etc in the evenings, and indeed he needs to learn to tidy his own bedroom, help stack the dishwasher after a meal etc. I am also trying to get him to make sure he has his schoolbag packed in the evening, and help make his packed lunch if he chooses not to have school dinner

So many of his friends don't have to take any responsibility for themselves at all.

I don't want to sound like a slave driver, and believe me he has plenty of time for playing. But he needs to learn his place in the family (and in society), and a gentle start even aged 8 seems appropriate to me.

prettybird, just coz somethings were acceptable 30 yrs doesnt mean it still should b, times change hence why child labour is no longer widespread. for the record im all for giving kids independence allowing them to play by themselves etc im not arguing that, but bogging off to resturant/shops and leaving them alone when they are very young is very different

We'll have to agree to differ - I think a lot of today's ills are because we are over-protective.

And it is not a case of "bogging off to the restaurant/shops", it is a case of doing a proper risk assessment, taking the proper precautions and knowing and trusting your kids.

I am scared that we have started to let ds walk to school, age only 7. Such apprehension is only normal. But I also know that we have been training him for years to be good with traffic - and that we have a duty to give him some independence. And I firmly beleive that in the long run, he will be a safer, more confident and more self reliant individual.

"we have a duty to give him some independence"

I totally agree with that. It's an important part of bringing up a child. The independence suitable for a 7 yr old is going to be much less than that for a 10 yr old, but they are both still important.

I had a very free childhood (in the sixites) and went 5 blocks to the shop by myself when I was 4. Went biking for the whole afternoon when I was 7 - etc. etc. I think that taught me to be self-reliant and responsible and was mainly a good thing. (All freedom disappeared when I became a teenager, though )

BUT - last year my mother was watching my DS (3, almost 4). She couldn't convince him to come with her to the shop, so she left him alone in the house and went anyway. I was absolutely shocked, and the worst part is she didn't even seem understand how serious it was. "Oh, he was just sitting there playing," she brushed me off. Is that incredible, or what? (She must have been gone a least half an hour.)

Sorry about the long post...

Ohmigod, I killed the thread.
That's another Mumsnet first for me...
Seriously, are you all too shocked to continue??

mummimamma, you havent killed the thread!!

I used to have to make my brothers tea from the moment I started secondary school. My mum used to take a public bus with her 8 yr old cousin from when she was 4.

Times change and some people let their kids have some form of responsibility, others don't. My 10 yo is regularly on the house on his own for up to half an hour at a time. He has been allowed to go and hang out with his mates for at least a couple of years.

At the end of the day, you nave to do what feels right to you, BUT you also have to let go of the reins sometimes even when it DOESNT sit right with you. At the end of the day, it really isnt helping your kids if they cant wipe their own noses/cross the street/think for themselves without Mum's help.

Also, over here, kids go on the bus alone from when they are 5. The difference in confidence between the average 5 yo in the UK and the average 5 yo in the US is quite amazing.

So you don't think my mother had completely lost it when she left my 3 year old alone??? I'm all for giving kids freedom to roam, but this I thought was absolutely senile. (By the way, I live in the US, where I think people in general are way too over-protective with their kids, but I am from Norway, where things are more like in the UK.)