Is my 2 yo really so badly behaved?

[FriedFortress]

OK, I really need to hear from some other parents. My mum is convinced my toddler (2 years and 5 months) is a terror and I am letting her get away with way too much. We went to visit them over the weekend and:

• they have a cat my daughter loves. It was impossible to get her to leave the cat alone. She was constantly trying to pet it and pick it up, so cat was quite stressed. I felt terrible about this; we don't have pets at home so it's all new to her.
• she is a bad sleeper (always has been) and gets up often during the night, asking to be tucked in again
• she kept running around and jumping on the sofa and demanding adult attention.
• she is going through a phase where she spits on things and then goes "ew gross". So yeah, gross.
• You can tell her no a hundred times, but she just thinks it is funny.

She is very expressive and has advanced language skills (has spoken in complete and grammatically correct sentences since she was about 18 months old). I think that is also why people sometimes forget she is only 2. She also just had a little sister (DD2 is three months), and she's been finding it really hard to cope with not getting our full attention, so I know she's "difficult" right now.

Anyway, my mum says that we are too permissive and if we do not learn to control her, she'll go bad. She also threatened that if my daughter ever comes to stay with her, she'll give her a spanking if she needs it. I was obviously not happy with this.

So, is she really as terrible as my mum says? And does anyone have advice on how to set boundaries (other than my mum's horrible spanking suggestion)? She is fearless, and loves being naughty, so time-outs etc just don't work at the moment.

She's two.

If the cat was pissed off, it would've legged it or swiped her. Cats only do what they want to do.

I'm not sure what other posters are expecting of a lovely boisterous 2yr old? Maybe to sit quietly with hands in laps whilst listening to the adults talk about boring adult shit?? 🙄

My two would have had the cushions off the sofa and built a den with them, but then I would have encouraged that (whilst quietly saying 'I don't like that' about the spitting) and if my mum moaned about it, I would have apologised and left and suggested she come to us next time.

They're small for such a short time, I turn everything into a game and usually the best game wins. Use that to your advantage!

@FriedFortress I feel like you and DD are getting some unnecessary stick for the cat business. She loves the cat, is trying to engage with it in what she sees as a nice way, it’s not like she’s prodding it in the ribs then laughing when it gets upset. The way I see it DD and the cat are the two most vulnerable and least able to self regulate in the room and obviously need to be kept apart right now. So do you have to get out of your seat umpteen times to move DD away from the cat or move to another room with your DD, entirely defeating the point of coming to see your DM? No, I reckon your DM needs to move the cat to a safe place, shut the door of the room you’re in with her and DD. Because ‘don’t do that’ works as well with two year olds as it does with cats who are about to scratch because they’re frightened.

My DS is two and four months. He is ‘that child.’ The one who sweeps everything off tables at toddler group and other people’s houses because he knows it’ll get a big reaction, no matter how much I tell him not to and move him away. And so I’ll run about moving stuff he shouldn’t touch before he gets at it, recommend friends don’t sit their coffee cups in his reach - it feels like my life is 100% risk assessment and damage control but it’s worth it for a bit of peace. And plenty of other stuff. I can see that people clearly have him marked out as the naughty child already and it’s hurtful. Like your DD he is very bright and expressive. Time out doesn’t work for us either because he just runs away. I do ‘quiet time’ which means I take him up to my room, shut the door, sit with him but I just sit and explain very clearly and boringly why we’re up there. No toys in there. I do feel like it works sometimes because he clearly hates it and will usually stop doing something if it means more quiet time.

No solid advice here but you have my sympathy it can be so hard. A friend who has a DS who’s 8 now told me that when he was my DS’s age she started distancing herself from friends with similar ages kids because hers always looked like the token naughty child in comparison (he’s much better now). I know exactly how that feels. You’re doing a good job.

Natural consequences wherever possible are the best so it’s not you meeting out punishments but a natural consequence of her behaviour. Ie: she hurts the cat, the cat doesn’t like it and needs to go into a different room.
Try to divert behaviour rather than ban it (spitting excluded obvs) ie jumping on the sofa...I see you have lots of energy, let’s play a running around game

The cat is unacceptable. I disagree entirely that a 2yr old can't be expected to treat animals with respect. We've always had animals, as do most friends and neighbours, and subsequently had many young guests that weren't just brought up with them. Barring sn, the only dc that didn't quickly grasp how to treat animals were those with parents that weren't committed to zero tolerance, and instead made half arsed efforts and excuses.

Spitting isn't acceptable either, unlike hitting etc it doesn't sound like a spur of the moment flash of anger or high spirits.

But of course hitting her as your mum suggests isn't at all acceptable.

I would have been horrified if mine behaved like that! But then I have unusually placid children.

Exactly what @cannotmakemymindup said on P2.

Perfectly normal for a toddler to try these behaviours, but from your OP it doesn't sound like you were stopping them. That is why your Mum perceives her as naughty - she "was constantly" trying to pick the cat up...... "she kept^ running around and jumping on the sofa"....... it isn't the touching the cat in the first place, it isn't the first time she tried to jump on the furniture, it was the fact she was allowed to keep on doing it, that is the issue.

I'm not commenting from having a calm, placid, beautifully behaved child either. dc1 was massively hard work - I was never 'off duty'. To this day I am agog at the posters that talk about 'meeting in coffee shops' with their little ones - totally out of what I experienced with him but, when you have a livewire, you just have to up your game to deal with it.

Spitting, jumping on furniture, repeatedly bugging the cat.....all well within my children’s grasp to stop at that age.

I think pets deserve to be protected and the cat should have been put in a different room.

Yes she sounds wild. At 3 and a half (and no sn) she. Is perfectly capable of understanding that these behaviours are not acceptable. You will regret it one day when she won't leave the cat alone and it takes a swipe at her face. Animals are not toys.

Perfectly normal for a two year old.

The definition of what is normal behaviour for a two year old seems to really vary, and that alone is quite comforting. Thanks to everyone for being supportive.

@AgentCooper - I really recognise your experience, thank you for sharing. I also notice I am distancing myself from some friends and less eager to take DD to playgroup because of all the looks we get. She is definitely the loud, boisterous and cheeky child. She is never really violent with other kids, thank goodness, but she has this way of talking back and come out with really "adult" statements to other parents that can come across as really rude. Some friends and family think it is hilarious, because she is so precocious (and that encourages her of course), but some also look at me like I am the most unforgivably incompetent parent ever.

Yes, terrible I am with your mother on this

@FriedFortress I don't know what the adult statements are. But things that seem funny from a 2-year old, don't from a 5-year old. And it is really hard to get a child to stop doing something, that previously was laughed at and encouraged.

Your mothers behavuour is worse than your child's.

Your child is a normal two year old. Pushing boundaries and playing for attention due to mummy being pregnant and then a new baby.

Your mothers threat to physically assault your child is unacceptable. For me that would be game over. I'd be sitting er down and explaining to her that she either committed to never assaulting her or you go no contact.

I would say a stern no. Make her sit in a boring place. And ignore. I have a really stern ‘you have crossed a line’ face. And if the behaviour was being repeated I would simply leave from there and make it clear why. My son is 3 and is on the livelier end of things (my older son was a much more obedient toddler) but honestly I would say no to the spitting, the ‘adult talk, the cat pestering and the sofa jumping. All ‘no’.

I always take a small bag of stuff with me for him wherever I go. And some books. She sounds like she was dead bored. What did she have to play with? It also helps to set expectations before hand. We are going to a restaurant. We are going to sit nicely, I will give you crayons and a read a book, we will use our ‘outside’ voice and not throw food. If you need the toilet let me know. It will take some time for the food to come out because they have to cook it. And lots of praise. Lots. Same with ‘we are going to grandma’s. No jumping on the sofa or bothering the cat. I will take X with me in my bag and you can play with it.’ And lots of praise.

Also the answering back, without some form of Victorian hierarchy I have always made it clear to both my kids that I am not their mate but their mother and they will speak nicely to me. When she answers back just say ‘I don’t like that’ and make a stern face and don’t engage further. I offer lots of choices but overall I try not to constantly negotiate and explain. I leave explanations for when they are calm. Because sometimes a ‘no’ is a ‘no’ and they have to listen. (And I can tell them why on the way home). I keep rules simple: no hitting, no throwing, no screaming. Those are our big three. Breaking those rules result in immediate consequences.

Btw the laughter thing is nervousness. My son used to laugh too. I never ever flinched. I had my pissed off face for as long as I needed to. But while I am strict I am also always conscious of praising him with ‘good listening’ or ‘I asked you to do X and you did, and I appreciated that.’ Or praise for doing something they didn’t want to do.
It’s also not too early to talk about feelings and how to deal with them. I introduced him to the idea that if he was frustrated or disappointed (we talked about scenarios) and role played a lot) then he could come for a cuddle. It doesn’t mean he would get what was upsetting him but he could get a cuddle.
Yesterday he came and told me (he’s just turned 3), ‘I need a cuddle because my dolly is not listening to me!’
Being loud is okay (within reason), as is being boisterous. Although if that means pushing other kids or getting in their faces then that needs stopping. And cheekiness in an age appropriate way is cute.
In the main though I don’t mind kids more boisterous than mine if they are also good natured generally and if I feel that their parents are keeping a close eye on them if they misbehave. The bit where it irritates me is when they don’t something unacceptable and the parent says no, kid does it again, parent says no, kid does it again, parent shrugs and says ‘it’s all a phase isn’t it?’ That drives me crazy.

Someone pp distraction and redirection is what works best with toddlers. True. Also, Sal1977 made a good point that highlights how young children need to play and turn things into a fun game. It's how children learn. Was there anything stimulating and age appropriate for your dd to play with while visiting your mum? Bring toys and activities that your dd enjoys doing with you or have your mum visit you instead. Distraction, redirection, fun and engaging play, plenty of positive attention and prevention rather than cure strategies eg modifying the environment to be suitable for a toddler.

Read up on developmental milestones so you can have a better understanding of her behaviour, the reasons behind her behaviour and whether it is normal or not.

Also, you come across as a good mum who loves her children. Ignore your mums criticism.

Do*
And you know sometimes they are hungry and tired and you have to cut them slack.

I would also tackle the general behaviour and then the sleep later. If she doesn’t like sticker charts don’t bother. Sometimes specific praise is much more useful. So ‘you went to bed and then when you woke up you said, I will stay in my bed and tuck myself in and you did and that’s a very big girl choice you made.’ It’s some mix of boundaries and praise.

Despite all this my two went a bit nuts at the supermarket. My fault. They were tired. Bored. But I absolutely needed to get something specific to give someone. They began running around. Nothing worked. And then I ran into the mum from school with the two most beautifully behaved daughters. Oh dear. Oooofff.

Gosh, sorry to say but your mum sound quite harsh! She's only 2 and I think that sounds totally normal! How is she supposed to know how to act around a cat at that age?! Go easy on her, having a new sibling is a huge adjustment and her whole world has been turned upside down so some of it could be a reaction to that. I also totally recommend a book called How To Talk so Little Kids Will Listen, it teaches you alternative ways to talk to them if they're really ignoring you.
Also go easy on yourself! You're still recovering and adjusting to a bigger family and are doing really well. Things will settle down in time and she will move onto the next phase! x

We have a cat (a very friendly tolerant one), so my 2 year old is used to them and doesn’t go crazy when she sees them. Some of her little friends are not used to cats and are obsessed with her when they come to our house. I usually let them strike her for a bit while I hold her still, directing them in the best way to do it. And then shut her upstairs as she’s not the brightest creature and will keep coming back for more until she gets pissed and potentially scratches.

My mum’s cat is terrified of children and is very large and aggressive. He is immediately put in another room and my older child is allowed to visit him with supervision. My toddler is not.

Yes children do need to learn how to behave around animals, but adults need to take some responsibility too and remove the animal if the child is not settling down with it

And that should definitely say STROKE not strike lol. That would be bad!

She's certainly more, um, rambunctious than my 3 were and I admit I'd find her behaviour pretty hard to tolerate.

The cat issue is easy - let him into another room and shut the door. He deserves peace and she can't play with him untul she's ready to be gentle. 2yo can learn that pretty quickly in my experience. "Gentle with kitty or he'll have to go into the kitchen." Model it to her and help her.

The jumping on furniture and spitting is unacceptable. Stop it but don't over-emphasise it, because it's a way for her to get attention on her and not the baby.

The main thing is to always follow through consistently so she understands boundaries aren't negotiable, and you notice and praise the behaviours you want to encourage. "Wow, you did that so well" etc etc. If she gets the attention she's craving for positive stuff more than negative her behavious will improve.

@FriedFortress my DS is the same - the loud, boisterous one who I need to watch like a hawk at toddlers group because he will chuck things, climb up onto his pushchair and stand on it. He has a wee friend there, a girl who is very similar, and chats with her mum are very soothing for me because it makes me feel less alone. He was bellowing at top volume the other day and one wee girl had her hands over her ears and rushed to her mum for a cuddle. Her mum angrily told my DS to be quiet. Another wee boy is always asking his granny why my DS is throwing things, knocking over chairs etc. He got shouted at by a cashier in Lidl once.

It can be very hurtful when you are trying your absolute best with a very, very spirited child

I know it must be tough with a newborn and she is 2, but I think its actually very poor behaviour. My DD is 15 now but didn't behave like this, I regularly have my niece who is the exact same age for the weekend and she is very boisterous. But the jumping on sofas, the cat and spitting are definite no-no's. Time outs my DD would get up so I would keep putting her back and more importantly, praise, praise, praise good behaviour. With my niece if she stroked the cat nicely I would make a massive deal out of it and how kind and nicely behaved she was. My niece is a nightmare for another sibling but really well behaved for me. I think its because I go OTT on praise and she loves the attention and I'm very clear what behaviour is not acceptable. In regards to your DM I would make it clear that smacking is not ok and please do not leave your DD with her