Is my 2 yo really so badly behaved?

[FriedFortress]

OK, I really need to hear from some other parents. My mum is convinced my toddler (2 years and 5 months) is a terror and I am letting her get away with way too much. We went to visit them over the weekend and:

• they have a cat my daughter loves. It was impossible to get her to leave the cat alone. She was constantly trying to pet it and pick it up, so cat was quite stressed. I felt terrible about this; we don't have pets at home so it's all new to her.
• she is a bad sleeper (always has been) and gets up often during the night, asking to be tucked in again
• she kept running around and jumping on the sofa and demanding adult attention.
• she is going through a phase where she spits on things and then goes "ew gross". So yeah, gross.
• You can tell her no a hundred times, but she just thinks it is funny.

She is very expressive and has advanced language skills (has spoken in complete and grammatically correct sentences since she was about 18 months old). I think that is also why people sometimes forget she is only 2. She also just had a little sister (DD2 is three months), and she's been finding it really hard to cope with not getting our full attention, so I know she's "difficult" right now.

Anyway, my mum says that we are too permissive and if we do not learn to control her, she'll go bad. She also threatened that if my daughter ever comes to stay with her, she'll give her a spanking if she needs it. I was obviously not happy with this.

So, is she really as terrible as my mum says? And does anyone have advice on how to set boundaries (other than my mum's horrible spanking suggestion)? She is fearless, and loves being naughty, so time-outs etc just don't work at the moment.

She sounds tricky. But lots of two years olds are.
My DS would easily have been like that but I learnt, for him, I had to head him off at the pass before it started.
Distract & occupy before the behaviour ramped up.
That might help.

Though, tbh, spitting /jumping on the sofa & annoying the cat have to be nipped in the bud.
Sleeping / getting up is pretty normal.

Your Mum threatening to spank her - not acceptable

Sounds like normal 2 year old behaviour, although I would try and stop the behaviour with the cat.
Maybe if you ignore the spitting it will stop?

I wouldn't let her stay with your Mum though. That's unacceptable.

Good luck, 2 year olds are hard work!

It doesn't sound anything out of the ordinary for a 2 year old. But speaking from bitter experience,(I say this in the nicest way possible) get your shit together now regarding discipline and implement it! Sit down with your partner and decide exactly what your 'new' plan is regarding what will be tolerated, what won't be tolerated and how you will reward/punish Dd for those things.

My Dd was the same as yours, people (including myself) would excuse a lot of her behaviour with 'oh she's only 2, she'll learn'. Not if she's never told how to behave she won't!

By the age of 3 my little one was becoming a spoilt little Madame who had got away with everything for too long. Dh and I had to sit and decide what would be ignored (you can't pick her up on every little thing), there has to be some consideration for her age.

So general silliness - if she's not hurting anyone then a gentle reminder to calm down is fine. If she is deliberately being too rough near her baby sister, a firmer warning is fine, if she continues then she has to go and calm down for 5 minutes. Also, lots of praise for the good bits, however small. Especially now she has a baby sibling. My Dd loves fetching nappies for me, or putting her shoes and coat on herself (because she's a big girl), singing and dancing when her sister cries to cheer her up, all of these things get recognised and high fives or hugs.

She's getting there. We also have to make allowances when Dd is tired, she becomes very argumentative and from the outside it looks as though she is being quite rude. We know this is because of tiredness, telling her off escalates the problem and causes more tears and tantrums. If she is being rude because of tiredness, we give her a hug and remind her that we'll be home soon and she can relax for a bit before dinner, or it won't be long before bed time.

None of us are perfect, we're all doing our best. But leaving her to it expecting her to learn right from wrong on her own will come back to bite you.

So if she gets back up from the step, do you put her back on it?

Obviously not doing nothing or letting everything slide, but I am probably not as consistent as I could be. I had an emergency c-section with DD2 and still don't feel fully recovered, so am pretty tired out.

I also feel like it is becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy: my mum is approaching her like the "naughty" kid, and so DD is naughty. DD2 is a content, adorable and happy baby, so my mum fawns over her. DD feels like she cannot get positive attention, so will settle for negative.

DH works a lot - he helps where and when he can, but feel like the actual raising of DD is on my shoulders a lot of the time.

@JiltedJohnsJulie - Yes. I even locked the bedroom door on her at some point. I know that was an awful thing to do, and would never normally have done it. She thought this was also funny and tried climbing out the window (they were locked, though).

I think you need to cut yourself some slack OP. DD does sound a bit of a handful but she's 2 and she's having to deal with a new sibling too.

Try this book for some tips on how to calm her a little. Have you done the m-chat too?

I agree with the others though, if your "D"M's answer is to spank her, I'd be seeing a hell of a lot less of my M.

All sounds normal to me, especially with the new sibling, but I would have zero tolerance for the cat thing. Although with DD the best ‘punishment’ is zero attention (she is an attention addict), I would have put her on ‘the step’ for this. The only thing I’ve ever used it for is not being kind to our dog / cats. When we first did it she would keep getting off, but I would firmly, with no talking sit her back on. All very boring for her. She might cry / tantrum but just needed to be ignored. I haven’t actually had to do it in months now (she’s 2 & 7 months).

If she does something undesirable I give one warning ‘if you do that again I will need to take it away / walk away’ & always follow through. DD also going through a spitting phase, so at the moment when she does it I just stop playing / talking to her (which she hates!).

I try and just be calm and firm, but I find it so, so hard not to just lose my shit! Toddlers are so, so testing!

Most of that sounds pretty normal for a 2 year old. Mine are 2 and 4 and although my 2 year old DD is actually really chilled out, (don’t worry my 4 year old was horrific at 2), I do get frustrated by her behavior as it’s just practically impossible to reason with a 2 year old.

For us, things improved at around 3. In that DS would still be naughty, but he understood punishment and could be reasoned with. I do have to remind DH that discipline that works with 4 year old DS does not always work on 2 year old DD. Like time out. She just screams and screams and doesn’t understand it. It’s pointless, whereas it’s quite effective on my 4 year old.

Mostly i find it easier to distract her with something else rather than just tell her to not do something, but obviously you reinforce the message that she is not to jump on the sofa or whatever. But instead of just saying don’t do that, you say don’t do that you might get hurt, come and look at this toy instead. It’s not easy though and some kids are just more strong willed than others

Also yes I do think grandparents forget what it’s like. My mum would say things like “you never did that. I never had to tell you off”. Yes I believe that.

I wonder if DD1 suddenly seems bigger/older/naughtier in comparison to your brand new baby. I certainly remember DS1 suddenly looking like a hulking great toddler the first time he met DS2 (he was only 14 months old!)

DS1 was a biter, and it peaked when I was PG with DD1 (bear with me, this is going somewhere). Was at the end of my tether, went to the GP and saw a behavioural therapist who told me to spend 30 minutes a day 1:1, doing whatever he wanted. Worked a treat. 30 minutes playing trains every day sorted it - so maybe try to build some time in.

The other thing I would suggest is to remove your attention. Tell her ‘No’ firmly, and then ignore. If she carries on, keep saying a firm ‘no’.

It’s all about choosing your battles. Both of you are adapting to a new baby (I found going from 1:2 very challenging).

It’s really hard, use what time you can to sit with DD1, read a book, co-sleep, whatever. Babies are pretty basic in many ways, but your 2yo might need more emotional support.

It’s about getting you all through this transitional stage, and put the other side.

Good luck. You’re doing fine (ignore what your mother says).

She is fearless and loves being naughty

She thinks it's funny when she's told off, she demands constant adult attention, jumps on the furniture, won't do as she is told.

Oh dear. To be honest I wouldn't want her round my house, and although she is clearly having trouble adjusting to having a new sibling at the moment, I think your mum has a point.

She certainly sounds like she would benefit from tighter boundaries. Tormenting animals and spitting are both totally unacceptable and I think you know that. Yes it’s going to be hard work to be consistent with discipline but that’s parenting I’m afraid, she didn’t ask you to have another baby. You can’t slack off parenting child number one because number two is here.
Make your expectations clear to her before you go anywhere, give one clear warning down at her level, then if she ignores you she gets a consequence (whatever that might be). Lots of praise for positive behaviour, and one on one time doing fun stuff when baby is asleep.
I doubt your mum meant the sparking comment, she was probably just fed up with her house being wrecked and her cat tormented.

You don't have a baby gate? I get the time out thing. My DD would never sit still either. She also loves attention. If she misbehaves I warn her about time out. If she continues I put her in the dining room/kitchen and close the baby gate and walk away. It then doesn't matter that she isn't sitting because her being by herself works fine.
Talking to toys also works for me, so saying "you're being so good princess Ariel! We don't like it when people are being naughty."
She will have lost your attention but will be hearing second hand that being naughty is not OK. Instead my DD was then desperate to approach me and ask nicely for whatever she wanted. Queue lots of praise.
Good luck op! 💐

Tormenting cat is definitely problematic as if it gets irritated and takes a swipe at her she could really get hurt, a cut infected etc,.
Spitting is absolutely disgusting at any age. But you know that, she knows that. Suggestion to clean it herself is a good suggestion.

I think if my daughter was jumping on sofa and getting warned to stop I would instantly remove from sofa put back on floor. Child tries again, same again but no conversation about it, so no attention given. We've all seen kids be held in place when they're trying to run away, scrabble around. I don't mean in a harsh or cruel way but sometimes children have to learn your no really meant no. They may get frustrated and upset but you talk to them and explain you warned them but they wouldn't listen. Even at 2 years. I also find it funny when people say they won't understand. Yes they may understand less but they do understand. Consistency is always key.

Have you tried a reward chart/reward jar for good behaviour? I've always had more success rewarding good behaviour rather than 'punishing' bad. I am the owner of a very intelligent, communicative just-turned-3 year old who sounds similar to your 2 year old. We tend to use a reward jar with big pom poms that go in it when she is good (eg staying in her bed all night), remove them when she is naughty and a reward once the jar is full/at the end of a good day. Good luck OP, parenting toddlers is impossible and can only be made worse by judgemental and unsupportive grandparents, you have my sympathies

Thanks all. If someone has good suggestions for consequences that actually work (or have worked for your family), would love to hear.

Thanks all. If someone has good suggestions for consequences that actually work (or have worked for your family), would love to hear. try the book.i linked to OP

My dd used to laugh when told off and treat it as a game - I’d say quickly removing them somewhere quiet and boring is best, if you do it enough they realise it’s not a game.

The point about getting quality attention from DM and you is spot on.

Do you think your mum would actually spank her?
Mine might say it when exasperated but never do it - I’d show your mum just picking her up and removing her and make it clear that this is what we do these days and explain that dd is trying to get her attention.

@imabusybee

We tried a sticker chart with DD for staying in bed! She seemed to like it at first, but then seemed to "give up" on it - the pay-off was just not enough compared to what we asked of her, I think. We did it for potty training as well - that was a breeze (so I guess you win some, you lose some).

@JiltedJohnsJulie

I will do!

My siblings and I were certainly smacked and spanked as children. She believes it is effective and nothing will convince her otherwise. I don't know if she'd actually do it to DD - I doubt it because she knows I am against it in every way. She just thinks I am wrong.

We had a lot of similar behaviour from DS at that age. Similar gross behaviour- dribbling water back into his glass, opening his mouth wide to show off a mouthful of chewed food, that kind of thing. A loud pointed “I’m not paying attention to that” and turning away/making a thing of talking to someone else helped a lot (even a toy if there are no people, as Raspberry mentioned above). Don’t start it at your mum’s because she’ll probably do something even more horrific that will make you cave but with my DS it was pure attention seeking and removing the attention was the key.

DS also used to laugh when being told off. I very much got the sense that he didn’t know what the appropriate reaction was, don’t know if that applies to your DD? For a while he was driving me nuts but then I looked at him one day and saw the situation as a kind of “Mummy is being weird, I wonder what I do now?” thing through his eyes. I switched to a “You’ve thrown your toy across the room and I’m really cross about that, I’m going to take that toy right away” kind of approach and it seemed to help. But he may just have grown out of it.

HTH

It sounds fairly normal but I would have zero tolerance for pestering the cat. It’s unfair on the cat. Remove child, remove cat and make your disapproval clear. In fact I’d reprimand her as soon as she went anywhere near the cat. In my experience it’s impossible to teach small children where the line is drawn, it’s simpler just to say zero contact between children and pets.

I disagree with a pp about the laughing at you - my daughter used to laugh whenever we gave her a row. We just persevered.

I use the ‘how to talk so little kids will listen’ book. My son is only just two. I agree it’s mostly normal but personally I would not like the cat and the spitting.

With the cat it would be redirection, boundary setting, enforcing boundaries (which is physical removal of object, cat or toddler). So it would be ‘ah ah let the cat be, let’s see what this jigsaw is doing’. Then (inevitably) ‘I can’t let you chase the cat. The cat is going away now’ and either toddler or cat is removed. I would expect to have to repeat myself. Toddlers can’t really regulate in my experience so it seems to be about keeping those boundaries for them. I have to be sure and confident. I have found a purely verbal remonstration to be completely ineffectual!

I don’t like naughty step and I don’t like charts. I may eat my words when it turns out these totally work for my son! But for now I’m sticking with redirection and firm boundaries. Oh, and choices. I believe in choices although they must be two equal.

With a new sibling, she’s only little. I think you’ll have to apply the toddler tactics to your Mum too. You need to fight the corner for your kids. Just as you have expectations of their behaviour, you have expectations that they will be treated in a certain way. I would be making it quite clear that I am the parent and will deal with things in my own way. Plus, I know my kid best and am best placed to respond to whatever need is being expressed through the actions described.

Yes really don’t understand why people are saying the behaviour with the cat was wrong. She isn’t used to pets. It’s a big ask to expect her to suddenly get how she is meant to behave with one and not get excited. I would just expect the owner to put the cat outside etc.

Yeah like pp have said I wouldn’t be impressed with tormenting the cat, spitting and jumping on the sofa.
You just have to keep reinforcing no means no.
Rewarding good behaviour is a good idea too.
Your mum probably won’t smack her I don’t think it’s just her go to threat to try to get good behaviour.
Me and my sister were smacked but my mum wouldn’t smack her gc.
Got to get a grip now she’ll just try to push more boundaries if not.