Majorly fucked up, help me

[seeyounexttime]

5 year old DD still relies on being cuddled to sleep. Lots of reasons for this but it's gone on too long. No other issues with her. The whole routine can take up to an hour. We have a 8 week old DD too, so you can see where this is going. I often have both alone at bedtime as DH doesn't get back from work til 9 depending which office he's in. Last night DD1 stayed awake listening to stories while I put DD2 to sleep, fine. I then spent an hour in DD1's room and any time I moved to leave she stopped me. I told her I had to go to the bathroom and a minute later she was wailing so loudly she woke the baby. I settled the baby and went back to DD1 and the cycle continued. She did this twice more. I ended up telling her I'd had enough, I was cross because she'd woken the baby and she had to go to sleep. As a result she was in a foul mood today and very badly behaved at her cousin's party. And I am exhausted. I am ashamed of myself and I've let her down for letting this go on so long, how the hell do I sort this out? Any self soothing/bedtime advice is aimed at sensible people who do this when their DC are babies (as I will with DD2!). Please please help me.

Would any sort of reward chart help, like if you go to sleep on your own you get ** treat/sticker/etc. And then see how that goes?

Or maybe letting them choose a night light/soft toy/new bedding set to make them excited about bedtime, and how that if they get new item then they need to go to sleep on their own. Make it exciting for them to want to stay on their own.

Hope this is helpful 🤗

Would audiobooks help? My eldest listened to them for a while. He's now stopped but it was either that or an old CD of mine he favoured.

Put her to bed with a cardigan you've been wearing, then make it clear you will be backing out because she's a big girl now. Try something like, day one, cuddle then retreat to another part of the bedroom, day two cuddle then less time spent in the room. Take it slow but move forwards, not backwards. Be prepared for it to be resisted but it will work.
For DD2, maybe look at sleep training around 6 months? The Good Sleep Guide by Angela Henderson has sensible advide.

@slowdownplease She's responded quite well to sticker charts in the past, although not always. Thank you for the suggestions.
@Mintypea5 she listens to audiobooks while I settle the baby and I had hoped she'd fall asleep listening but she told me she tries hard to stay awake during them.
I'm worried if we go to her settling herself to sleep she'll feel abandoned or rejected in favour of DD2, I know that sounds silly.

I had almost the exact situation. It was awful. Bedtimes were something I dreaded for the whole day. No one but me could understand how difficult it was. So know that I do. You haven't messed up. You're trying to meet the needs of both your girls and it's impossible. You just have to do your best and get through this time. I put ALL my energy into not getting cross with my five year old. Speaking calmly even though I was flaming with rage inside. I can't even tell you what changed or when or how but eventually it just did. Five year old just stopped the screaming over time and will now go to sleep on her own if she really really has to, but will always start by insisting she is going to wait for now 20 month old to go to sleep. Sometimes it makes her go to sleep too late but at least she waits quietly!

@ginswinger I like the idea of a gentle approach. Last night felt awful just leaving her crying herself to sleep. Goes against all my instincts but I couldn't cope anymore.

@OhWifey thank you for the sympathy. I wish I had your patience. I am ashamed to say I shouted at DD1 which is a very rare occurrence. I feel horrible about the whole thing. I don't feel like I can talk to friends/family about it because they have all said at some point that they think it's ridiculous she still relies on us to fall asleep. And they're not wrong.

Oh I should add the first time she fell asleep while waiting I made her a certificate. She absolutely loved it so after that, if we were alone for bedtime which was most nights, I'd tell her well in advance she'd need to 'go for a certificate'. When she got to 20 she chose a day out as a reward. Since we stopped certificates she's much less willing to go to sleep on her own but like I say, she at least has learned not to scream.

Don't beat yourself up, parenting is hard! What is the bedroom set up? Am assuming baby is in your bedroom and DD1 is trying to claim you as Hers?...

Oh there were definitely times I shouted! And felt like the worst person in the world. Tomorrow is a new day. She still thinks you're the best person in the world.
And meeting the needs of your child is not ridiculous. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise! It's just you have two to meet now and you have to split the load somehow

Talk to her about it well before bedtime. Tell her what you expect of her, and explain the sticker chart.

@GetUpAgain Yes DD1 in her own room, DD2 in with us. We talked about her maybe feeling jealous of DD2 being in our room (DD1 often comes in too in the wee hours, not a problem) and talked about how she'd had that time as a baby, babies need it, she's a big girl, etc. Also making sure to have lots of special one on one time while DD2 naps in the day, really focusing on DD1 so she doesn't feel pushed out.

@OhWifey thank you. I feel like nobody else has been in this situation with a child of this age so I really appreciate your comments.

I would somehow link it to the new school year.

I.e: Now you're in Year 1 (or reception depending on when she turned 5) you're now officially a big girl and it's time to do big girl bedtimes.

It's a bit tenuous but it avoids the link with the baby.

Take her out to buy a special cuddly toy to mark the occasion. Give her the usual routine, stories etc but then explain that she can go to sleep herself as a big girl.

Something that worked with ours was "checking".

Tell her you'll check on her in a few minutes, but maybe only wait 20-30 seconds the first time. Then tell her you'll check on her again in a few minutes, and this time make the time slightly longer. Increase it each time. Hopefully she will eventually go to sleep waiting for you to check. We did that for a few nights and after a while we only needed to check once.

@seeyounexttime I really struggled with DS sleeping until he was about 5?! He wouldn't sleep through and would only fall asleep if I sat and sang to him for hours. The audiobooks worked for us but i know they don't work for Everyone

What kind of bed is she in? I moved DS into a big boy midsleeper that he chose from Ikea when he was 5. He also got to chose night lights etc to try encourage him to sleep better independently.

I spent my days dreading bedtime and getting frustrated by the whole situation. So sending you lots of support especially if you've got a wee baby too

Don’t be too hard on yourself. To be honest you did the best thing - make it clear you will stay for one bedtime story and then leave. If she cries she cries. She has to learn how to self-soothe at some point and she is safe. In the meantime perhaps move DD2’s cot into a different room.

I don't have any advice but I wanted to say don't feel bad that your 5 year old likes to go to sleep like that. I lie down with my 5 year old for her to go to sleep. But I don't have other children, so it's easy for me to maintain.

Can you lie down in your bed with both kids? One on each side?

A weighted blanket?

Gradual retreat worked for us but it takes time.

First stage ds was told he would have a hug and then mummy or daddy would sit at the end of the bed until he fell asleep (prior to this had had to lie beside him).

Once we got this nailed ds was told we would sit in the chair by the door.

Next the chair was just outside the door but could still see us.

Then chair outside (lots of calling back and forth for reassurance but eventually this became less and less)

Lastly mummy or daddy in their bedroom next door.

Finally mummy and daddy downstairs.

Think the whole process took a few months !

Don't beat yourself up. We all fall into traps of doing things because sometimes the path of least resistance works at the time. Anything can change, at any time, with a bit of strength.
We found the only thing that motivated our dds to stay in bed was a chocolate reward in the morning! We still live by that rule!
I would suggest setting a timer (for the usual 60 mins) and telling dd that you'll stay until the timer goes off and then it's time for you to go, and if you can both stick to that, you'll both get a chocolate button in the morning. In the morning, you can be so proud of her that you give her your button too. Dd2 is too little to settle herself so can't have the chocolate treat.
Next night, shorten the timer by 5 mins. And so on. You can eventually choose to leave it at 10 mins special cuddle time if you wish.
Good luck (and be kind to yourself).

I've recently started leaving my 5 year old to fall asleep by himself. I prepared him a few weeks earlier, by telling him it was difficult to get all my jobs done in the daytime and would be better if I could do them while he is going to sleep by himself. He agreed he would do this as it would help me. I suggested starting one night, but he wanted to wait a couple of days so we did. It probably helped he was tired so went to sleep quickly the first few nights. I also tell him I will do the jobs quickly then come up to check on him. Twice he has said he was worried about going to sleep alone, so I have stayed, as I dont want to make it an issue. Honestly it has been a lot easier than I was expecting, like you I was really struggling and so it needed to change. I imagine your DD is still adjusting to having a baby sibling, but the fact they are 5 makes it easier in some ways... you can explain to her what needs to happen and get her input on the new bedtime routine so she feels more in control of the situation. Maybe you could do something like leave the washing up after dinner to have some quality time with her instead, but tell her that means you will need to do the washing up when she is falling asleep? I think the tangible thing that I was doing downstairs helped my DS to feel ok about it. I hope the transition also goes well for you.

I haven't tried this as I still lay next to my 4.5yr old while he goes to sleep and his sister is 2 now so I'm thoroughly embedded in the endless bedtime for them both and probably won't change it any time soon, however...

I read an idea somewhere about giving them kisses so long as they are in bed (and not screaming seems reasonable). You kiss them, take 2 steps away, go back and kiss them again, slightly further and slightly longer each time until you are out of their room for several minutes between kisses. Presumably on subsequent nights you speed up how soon you are out of the room until eventually you kiss them goodnight and that's the end of it.

As I said, don't know if it works but seemed like a nice idea to try if I ever decide to. Good luck, those early months of having 2 are really tough!

She’s 5 with no special needs. She just needs clear communication and a firm line in the sand on this. Expect some major uprising from her but with positive reinforcement, you’ll quickly have her delighted with herself and letting you leave.

Be clear, be firm. And expect 2 nights of hell from her over it.

Could you try sone sort of gradual withdrawal? Keep doing what you are doing , but decrease the amount of comfort you give. Explain it to her first, and then start the withdrawal. Go from paying, to sitting, then sitting on the bed to sitting on the floor, then sitting a foot away, and so on. Over a few weeks.