3 year old only sleeps 8-9 hours a night MAX and its driving us mental

[lookingouttosea]

Ok so I have heard the recommendations a thousand times, the WHO, my public health nurse, my GP, everyone-and-his-dog that "3 year olds should be sleeping 12 hours a night". It just doesn't happen. She's a very lively child...very, very lively. Always has been. She's never slept, not from day one did she ever sleep "through" the night. Her personality is just kind of wired that way.
We don't have the most strict routine because it isn't easy with OH's shift work and my schedule but we try our very, very best to make things as predictable as we can. We have a bedtime routine of bath, Pjs, story every night. We have tried various things to extend the length of time she'll sleep: earlier to bed, later to bed, naps, no naps (whether or not she has a nap during the day makes no difference to how long she'll sleep at night), food before bed, Groclock, blackoutblinds, cosleeping, not cosleeping...etc...
Essentially, she will never be asleep more than 9/10 hours in any 24 hour period and nothing we do seems to change this.
It's just tough because she only sleeps as much as we do so there's no time without her. Ever.
We have a 4 month old who goes down fine at 6/7pm and who sleeps really well. So it would be FANTASTIC if we could just have an hour or two in the evening after DD1 goes to bed to watch TV or...you know...talk without being interrupted.
Last night bedtime routine started at 7pm and she wasn't asleep until 10.30, by which stage we'd given up on watching Game of Thrones!
She simply says she's not tired. She won't stay in her room if that's the case and will just keep getting up.
I've tried cosleeping with her to see if that helps (maybe jealousy around baby etc) but it makes no difference and also she's always been like this before and after baby. Actually she's brilliant with new baby. Just doesn't want to go to sleep!
We've obviously suggested she sit in bed and read her books but she's too young...won't do that. Wants to get up.
Then midway through the night she'll wake up anyway and come into my room. That's fine, its an improvement on the 10 times she would have woken up a year ago. But then she's up ready for action at 7am again and its just tooooo much.
What's going on here? I told GP and PHN and they were very stern saying shes not getting enough sleep and we must be doing something wrong...
Help?

That sounds really tough, my DD is pretty wired too but still manages about 10 hours. It really seems like you have tried everything aswell which is even more frustrating.

When my DD plays up and doesn't want to sleep we let her come downstairs but make it really boring for her and don't interact with her , I guess you've probably tried that kind of thing.

I think if it were me my last resort would be a sleep consultant.

My 3.5yo is the same. She's my third child - I've never had one of these mythical in-bed-and-out-for-the-count-at-7pm children, but she takes it to ridiculous lengths. If she naps during the day, 10pm is the earliest we can hope for (and, tbh, not much earlier if she doesn't nap). She's awake between 7 and 8 the next day, rarely later. She does sleep through now, but she was still bf at night well into her second year.

Sorry to say, we go with the flow. Starting the bedtime routine at 7pm is utopian, and the more things you 'try', the worse it will be for you. If you keep thinking there's something wrong with her and push to 'fix' her, rather than accepting she is as she is now, things will get/stay fraught on both sides.

You'll probably have to let go of the idea of evenings as you envisage them, but there are things you can do. Pick a time a realistic space of time before she is likely to drop off and introduce quiet time in her room/in bed. Get her a CD player and some really good story CDs, Mine loves hers, and will sometimes go to bed in the day (has mainly dropped her daytime nap at home, see above anyway) and listen to them. Don't make it into a reward/sanction behaviour issue - it isn't one.

You say she 'wants to get up' but you are adult. You need to explain that its bedtime and she has to stay in her room. Help her learn to like being in her room, i loved it as a kid. And its nice for them to enjoy some peace and quiet on their own before bed.

You don't need a bath every night.

At 3 surely she can play with a few toys until she is tired?

My dd is 18months and sits and plays with her toys for 20-30mins in her cot before going to sleep.when she is older and out of her cot we'll let her do the same if she is happy.

Have you tried the supernanny “back to bed” method?

First time she gets up you take her by the hand and say “it’s bedtime darling” and bring her back to bed. No hugging, kissing, negotiating. Nothing.

Second time: “it’s bedtime” and put her in bed.

Third time: you say nothing and put her in bed

Repeat step three as many times as she gets up. You do not get angry or speak to her at all. No eye contact. Nothing. You just put her in bed. Repeat steps 1-3 for as many nights as it takes.

You say she 'wants to get up' but you are adult. You need to explain that its bedtime and she has to stay in her room. Help her learn to like being in her room, i loved it as a kid. And its nice for them to enjoy some peace and quiet on their own before bed

I agree. She's 3,plenty old enough that once she's put to bed she stays there and you keep returning her until she does. I'd make it clear she can play quietly or look at books but in bed.

Once that's cracked I wouldn't be surprised if she ends up sleeping longer.

Agree with putting her back to bed everytime. She comes down because you allow it and that's way more fun. My 4 and 5 year old are in their bedroom for 7 and sit in bed looking at books or chatting. Fine. They'll drop off when they're tired which is anything between 7.30 and 8.30. Hell would freeze over before I'd be spending my evenings with a pre-schooler!

Does she do enough activity during the day? Short walks, play park, swimming,etc?

I don't know about short walks,I remember walking loads with ds at 3 as I didn't drive then. I think we can underestimate how much excercise that age group needs.

Is she tired during the day? If she is, you obviously need to try another route to getting her to sleep longer.

If she's not tired, then perhaps that's all the sleep she needs? Some kids just need less. Just try and carve out alone time by occupying her with something else e.g. pp suggestion of audio books in her room?

Agreed. What really worked with DS was knackering him out with some form of activity every day.

I second trying to go with the flow. My dd didn't sleep well at all until she started playschool. She does 15 hours a week and then plays outside with daddy while I make dinner most evenings.

I drove myself insane trying to have this "perfect child" everyone talks about.

If she is still napping during the day definitely put a stop to them. Start leaving her up until she shows signs of sleep and then put her into bed with some quite toys. You can then try putting her in 15 mins earlier every 2/3 days. It's hard at this time of year too with the brighter evenings. Close all of your blinds around 7pm and turn off any and all screens.

If you are not averse to it you can ask your go to prescribe melatonin for short term use. Once she gets into a habit of sleeping longer it will start to come more naturally to her.

Sorry your "gp" not go!

Is she at nursery? I found that once they started full-time nursery/preschool and school they needed much more sleep and sleep problems (in my case waking too early) disappeared.

I agree with the Supernanny return to bed technique. It's hard and with my little girl I returned her 37 times one night but after 3 nights she went to sleep. You have to be comitted though, no point doing it one night and giving up cause you don't have the energy,
Thankfully my little boy was a sleeper and will ask to go to bed, but I'd have done the same with him if needed. They need know that bedtime is when you say it is.
I have a 5 and 4 year old, both asleep by 7.30 - but that's taken perseverance. Never once have they been allowed downstairs (unless poorly).
I have a friend who's daughter won't go to sleep for her before 10pm but when I babysit she's asleep by 8pm cause she knows I won't let her come down or mess around.
And yes - more exercise during the day and fresh air definitely helps!

Oh, I remember those days...
My oldest never slept the recommended amount either (but you know the recommendations have been widened to 10-13hrs for 3-5 year olds - she's not that far off sleepfoundation.org).
He IS sent to bed at 9pm. He IS NOT allowed up before 5.45, and not allowed the lights on before 5.15 (we have to leave for school at 6.50 - not in the uk). Bizarrely an alarm clock has helped with the mornings- because he isnt worried about missing get up time, he will actually lie still until the light switches on at 5.15, and then read (appreciate you are not at the stage of being able to read for extended periods yet).
If she isnt tired during the day, this may just be her natural rhythm..... doesn't help getting you sone adult time tho.

More physical activity throughout the day. Some kids just need more of it. Get her running laps in the garden if you have to.

When you have tried something, how long have you tried it for? It can take anything up to 6-8 weeks for a new routine to really stick and a change to happen. If you try something for only a couple of nights it won't really make much of an impact. What ever you try, try and stick to it for at least 6 weeks for it to make an effect.

Yes I agree with making her room somewhere she is happy to stay on her own if she isn't ready for sleep. The French stand by the ethos that night time is adult time (God we all need it!) and if the child won't go to sleep then they can entertain themselves in their room and not come out and that's that!

I think the super nanny method can work - keep routinely making getting up and joining you completely unrewarding - no speaking, no arguing, just back to bed (easier said than done I know). Perhaps if you stick to this night in night out, it may take hold.

Good luck!!

Have you considered she may have adhd - kids with adhd often struggle to get to sleep/ stay asleep and are ‘always on the go’

My dd is similar sleeps 10 hours. One week she did 12, must have been ill.
But she does get tired unfortunately it's mid afternoon so often falls asleep in the car.
She now goes to bed ok and stays there, but wakes before the 12h.
She is quite hyper, possibly adhd.
It's hard to change her sleep as i dont want to wake eldest as she misbehaves when tired

If none of the above works (it didn't for me) then you have to go with the flow.

My older daughter only needs 10.5 hours sleep a night. We've just accepted that we get a lot less adult time than other people! She gets a film after dinner to keep her occupied. I wouldn't worry about starting routines or whatever, just go with getting her to bed when she is tired (assuming that she is getting enough sleep). It's annoying but frankly I prefer just having her downstairs happily watching a film to trying for hours to get her to sleep when she's clearly not tired.

DD never slept more than that at that age. She is 18, and does now (CFS )

My DD was similar. Non-sleeping live wire. We suspected ADHD but she has ASD. Now as a pre-teen she sleeps more than she did as a toddler.

I'm not suggesting she has either but some children for one reason or another do not need the normal amount of sleep. All the advice as I was given just made me really stressed as I felt a total failure. It was a relief to be told it wasn't our fault.

By she I meant your DD, sorry I wasn't clear.