3 year old only sleeps 8-9 hours a night MAX and its driving us mental

[lookingouttosea]

Ok so I have heard the recommendations a thousand times, the WHO, my public health nurse, my GP, everyone-and-his-dog that "3 year olds should be sleeping 12 hours a night". It just doesn't happen. She's a very lively child...very, very lively. Always has been. She's never slept, not from day one did she ever sleep "through" the night. Her personality is just kind of wired that way.
We don't have the most strict routine because it isn't easy with OH's shift work and my schedule but we try our very, very best to make things as predictable as we can. We have a bedtime routine of bath, Pjs, story every night. We have tried various things to extend the length of time she'll sleep: earlier to bed, later to bed, naps, no naps (whether or not she has a nap during the day makes no difference to how long she'll sleep at night), food before bed, Groclock, blackoutblinds, cosleeping, not cosleeping...etc...
Essentially, she will never be asleep more than 9/10 hours in any 24 hour period and nothing we do seems to change this.
It's just tough because she only sleeps as much as we do so there's no time without her. Ever.
We have a 4 month old who goes down fine at 6/7pm and who sleeps really well. So it would be FANTASTIC if we could just have an hour or two in the evening after DD1 goes to bed to watch TV or...you know...talk without being interrupted.
Last night bedtime routine started at 7pm and she wasn't asleep until 10.30, by which stage we'd given up on watching Game of Thrones!
She simply says she's not tired. She won't stay in her room if that's the case and will just keep getting up.
I've tried cosleeping with her to see if that helps (maybe jealousy around baby etc) but it makes no difference and also she's always been like this before and after baby. Actually she's brilliant with new baby. Just doesn't want to go to sleep!
We've obviously suggested she sit in bed and read her books but she's too young...won't do that. Wants to get up.
Then midway through the night she'll wake up anyway and come into my room. That's fine, its an improvement on the 10 times she would have woken up a year ago. But then she's up ready for action at 7am again and its just tooooo much.
What's going on here? I told GP and PHN and they were very stern saying shes not getting enough sleep and we must be doing something wrong...
Help?

My middle child was like this and it was very hard for me. Especially since my DH worked out of the country and we only saw him around 70 days a year. I was a miserable parent and probably a terrible wife.

That child did not take more than a 15 minute cat-nap during the day and slept just under eight hours a night. So, I totally get you OP.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news though. That child is now 21 and his sleeping habits have not changed.
He just is a person that doesn't need a lot of sleep. He now takes two, 15 minute naps a day but he simply can't sleep more than seven hours.

I think that just some people are just meant to be more lively than others.

Would she listen to an audio book? Or would a sticker book in bed hold her interest more than actual reading books?

I agree with those that have said try Supernanny's technique. Provide her with 2 or 3 interesting books for her to look at, with lots of textures/flaps/things to spot rather than words, and maybe a couple of calm toys like giant threading beads of a jigsaw puzzle that goes into a tray. Do the usual bath, story, snuggle in bed routine, tell her it's grownup time and she may play and look at the books by herself until she falls asleep but she's to stay in her room, perhaps set an audiobook going for her and kiss her goodnight. Go downstairs and when she comes out (which you can expect her to until she learns it won't get her anywhere) do the back to bed technique. The key is to not get sucked into communicating with her, the third and subsequent times she comes out lead her back without a look, a word or any expression on your face. She should learn within the week. You can't force her to sleep but you can teach her to occupy herself.

Other things you could twitch at that may help her sleep longer:

Look at her diet. Avoid all additives, preservatives, colouring etc in her evening meal. Wean her onto just water to drink if you haven't already, and do your best to limit salt and sugar at teatime. These have a huge affect on me. I know if I have pasta with pesto or a chocolate biscuit for my evening meal that I'm screwed sleep wise that night.

Double her exercise during the day. If you'd normally spend an hour at the playground, spend 2 hours. If you'd normally go swimming in the morning and have a chilled afternoon, go swimming in the morning and for a long walk in the afternoon. You can get out doors in all weathers if you have waterproof overalls, and on the most extreme days when you can't face going out twice, set up an indoor obstacle course or have a living room disco.

Socialising is very tiring, so see if you can have a friend round for her a couple of times a week, or consider sending her to nursery for a half day or 2.

Limit TV and other screen time. This has 2 benefits, because firstly she'll be playing more actively and imaginatively instead, which will tire her out more quickly, and secondly when YOU need her to sit down and watch it for a while because you're ill or whatever you can use it as a bit of a carrot - she has to run 10 laps of the garden first or whatever.

I my son is a bit like this (and I actually find it easier than his brother who used to still wake multiple times during the night at this age and get up at 6am without fail).

We found stopping his nap was paramount to our sanity (even if it gets hard work during the afternoon). At least this way he is tired by bedtime.

We make sure he either goes to nursery or does something really physical during the day (swimming, long walk round NT grounds, soft play etc) and also short walks (for us, the school run means 2x 25 min round trips), trip to local park etc as well, if possible. We limit screen time so that he plays and keeps physically/ mental active as much as possible.

At bedtime, we have put a lot of effort in getting him to understand that bedtime is bedtim. Initially we continued to sit with him, and then did gradual retreat (moved to the door, onto the landing, bottom of stairs, living room), each time he came out of his room reminding him that it is bedtime and he needs to stay in his room. He can play or look at books, but ultimately he has to stay in his room. It did take a while, but he now understands this, and generally falls asleep quicker than when we stayed with him. Icassioanlly he doesn’t settle, and we go up to him if it gets beyond a certain point, but it is a vast improvement for us.

Good luck OP.

My older son just can’t skeep. I’ve just kinda accepted it so let him stay up so he thinks he’s staying up later (well he is) but in my head I have a time that he should be in bed for but he doesn’t know it. There is no point putting a child to bed if you k own for sure they are not going to go to sleep. You should do a physical activity with them in the evening, then have down time so shower, then trade books. Films and tv are not good keeps the brain ticking. You then do the retuning her to the bed routine. If that fails activities she can do in bed ie colouring, drawing, reading, audio story but she’s not allowed downstairs with you.

It could just be a phase and sometimes you just have to go with the flow.

Okay I agree with the comments saying you need to set the boundaries and not give in and let her come down after you've put her in bed. She's never going to stay there if she knows she'll get away with coming back downstairs, is she?!

I've never tried the Supernannies method myself, but in essence it's the same way that I originally sleep trained DS when he was younger - obviously he was still in a cot and couldn't get out himself, so he'd scream and want to get up and I'd keep going in at regular intervals to reiterate that I hadn't abandoned him, but it's time to go to sleep. It took him less than a week to get the idea.

The point is that once you've said it's bedtime, that's non-negotiable. As soon as you argue or engage with them, you're fuelling the fire, which is why you keep communication minimal.

It might take a while to kick the habit now she's in it, so you'll have to grit your teeth and set yourself to repeat the procedure a lot of times at first... Also maybe shift the bedtime forward gradually, so you're not suddenly expecting her to spend a couple of hours in her bedroom before she's used to going to sleep. Xx

Yes, I am with the supernanny on this one. Big mistake letting her come downstairs. Sounds hard BUT when we had our two boys in 77/1980 from when they started sleeping through, that's what happened. The pattern continued an bedtime was always 7.30 and up around 6.30am. Everyone in our generation did same and we always comment nowadays how some new ideas create big problems. It is harder the older the child gets (when they have had their own way till now) to get them in routine you want (and yes you want you time together in evening) but keep taking her/them back to bed no natter how many times, not down stairs. Sounds hard, but start from baby age rather than toddler. X

Have you tried leaving her in bed with children's audio books on? I believe there are some apps for this where you can set the age etc. Maybe she will not fall asleep, but it will be easier for her to stay in her room so she can get in the habit of it being quiet time, not being with mum and dad time.
I have a similar child, although and I think there is little you can do to make them actually sleep longer, but they can learn to be in their room and do something quiet instead.

Up at 7am isn’t too bad. That’s a lie in here as my dc have always gone to bed early but up early too. Our day starts at 5.30am and it’s hard but I have kind of adjusted as it just seems to be their body clock even as they have got older. Sometimes it’s earlier.

Can you accept her body clock is different and put her to bed later? Also she needs to be absolutely exhausted.

Sorry to say my dc do have additional needs (similar to adhd) which were diagnosed aged 8.

We did the 'go with the flow' method. Put the television on the wall fairly high so out of DCs' eyeline and watched what we wanted. All realised that beyond a certain time parents were really boring.

None of my 3 were good sleepers. 10 hours a night ?
As someone mentioned earlier, exercise is important. Especially swimming. And sledging in winter.
We used to go to the pool in the afternoon as often as possible. They could all swim by the time they were 3.

I am relieved to know that I’m not the only one with a weirdo toddler that will only sleep 9 hours (total, no naps). I made the mistake of letting her breastfeed for naps (usually 2 hour nap) until she turned 3. I knew it wasn’t ideal, but otherwise it took half the day fighting her to get her to relax and that felt counterproductive. Now she won’t even consider taking a nap. If I fight with her to lay down and try to sleep, it ends up taking hours of fighting and she is wide awake the entire time. I am pregnant and don’t have the energy right now. The best I can get is make her lay down next to me in a dark room and watch videos for a little while. I don’t think she is sleeping enough as she throws constant tantrums and whines all day. She is miserable, and so am I, as I don’t have any time away from her anymore, otherwise I am not sleeping enough and so exhausted. She has always been difficult and we have tried several “sleep training” methods, nothing has even slightly worked. Ferber worked for about 6 months when she was a year old. Then she one day decided she was not going to cooperate anymore with that. We finally have a routine that she will cooperate with and go to sleep easily at night, which involves my husband laying with her until she falls asleep. She ends up waking up at some time through the night crying for my husband, and he will finish his nights sleep in her room. (We have a full size bed in her room so husband sleeps ok in there.) She is afraid of everything it seems, and has separation anxiety, and I can’t bring myself to let her cry in a dark room when she will go to sleep willingly with us near her. This has been working for a while now, but not now that she barely sleeps!! I have tried getting her to bed a little earlier and she ends up waking up early to make up for it.

I know this thread was year. I hope it got better! I was reading your post and thought you cctv in our house for a second!!! Identical situation!! Did it get better?

I totally understand. My daughter gets about 8-9 hours of sleep a night on her good days. But she does take 2 one hour naps. She does still sleep with me so when its bed time we just cuddle ourselves to sleep. It has been especially hard with her starting preschool. She's never been a morning person but once she is up she is wired with energy. I think you know your child best and should worry if they you see something wrong.

I know this is old but when did this is improve if ever? My almost 3 year old went from sleeping 15 hours a night to sleeping 11 hours a night to now the last few weeks sleeping 8 hours a night & will not stay in his bed no matter what approach I take. He will not nap either. I am losing it.