DD2 has hurt DD1 what should we do?

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DD2 is 6. Earlier this evening she had a tantrum - tried hitting and kicking me. This is not unusual for her. I thought she had calmed down but then she hurt her older sister's leg. DD1 was still in massive pain after paracetamol and ibuprofen so DH has taken her to A&E.

DD2 initially did not seem to recognise that she had hurt DD1. She tried to attack DH. It took her about 20 minutes before she realised what she had done. Then she was very sorry.

She is always very good at school but so different at home. She is aware that she needs to be good at school and says it is too difficult to also be good at home. Sometimes we have a really bad evening and I eventually manage to find out from her that she was frustrated about something that happened at school.

She is very sensitive about clothes, having her hair brushed, tooth brushing is challenging. She does not like unexpected changes and often wants to watch the same tv program repeatedly. Some of her tantrums occur when i stop her watching tv. i always give her advance warning that it is going to be time to stop watching soon but this doesn't seem to make much difference.

I really think we need some help with her. She is not happy (none of us are). Should I try to talk to a GP about this or to the school? Since she is so good at school, I feel that they just won't believe the difference at home.

I know everyone on here calls the ASD card very quickly but hypersensitivity and masking at school could be HF ASD/ Asbergers. It presents very differently in girls - google for a checklist. You might be surprised.

Sorry your daughter got hurt. Does your other DD recognise that she did it? Often HF ASD in girls means they really do understand - often it prolonges the outburst because they get so upset with themselves and feel horribly guilty.

I agree with Mostly, there are so many pointers in your post.

One thing which is really common is the difference between home and school. You can get a referral through yoru GP. Make a list of your concerns.

In the meantime, have a look at some of the techniques which help with ASD, things like visual timetables and sand timers. Chill out zones, cards with emotio faces to help express how they are feeling and so on.

Also remember, as hard as it is, that these high-level outbursts are completely beyond your daughter’s control and really frightening.

We tend to just make the space safe and wait and she (DD) knows she can be held. She has some techniques for buying herself time to calm down in order to not do any permanent damage (because, as I say, she just hates it if she hurts anyone and she’s her own worse critic.) She likes to pace too. It’s getting better but it really does entail seeing the outbursts as something that is happening to her rather than something she is doing, if that makes sense.

Also, if it helps, HF ASD girls often have the most amazing imaginations and inner-worlds. They’re often highly creative and kind and self-aware and introspective. There’s so much to admire and count as a blessing but the emotional side is difficult.

Yes, ASD also. Our dd2 broke dd1 arm in a fight. Dd is very difficult at home, but exceptionally well behaved st school. she sounds very similar to my dd.

Thank you for your kind posts. DH and I do suspect ASD or maybe ADHD.
DD2 does have her own space she can go to if she wants it and I always offer her a cuddle when I can see she is struggling. She just seems to go from 0 to nuclear in a flash. @MostlyBoastly what techniques does your DD have to buy herself some time to calm down?

Sorry to hijack, I read your post op and it reminds me very much of my son. An angel at school but completely different at home. He calls himself a bad person and hates himself for it. He is a similar age. You have my sympathies and will watch with interest.

Are these ASD symptoms only attributable to girls?

Not at all - lots of overlap but also a fair amount of difference (characteristically - all different, obviously) for girls. It just helps to point it out as often girls fly under the radar because people tend to better understand HF ASD in boys.

She paces. She understands that if she can count to ten and concentrate on her breathing that usually gets her past the lashing out phase. She describes things she can see in her head because it helps her to place herself in space. It just seems to ground her. Then when she’s calm enough, she seeks me out. Sometimes she can be distracted if it’s been going on a while but only if we know she’s feeling bad about something (eg: She’s worrying that she’s spoilt a family event so we make a joke and loosen right up so she can see that we’re not cross.)

The outbursts resolve so much faster when there’s no action to go with the feeling. It’s actually the consequences of her meltdowns that prolonge them - so if she shouts at us, she then becomes inconsolable because she didn’t want to do that, and then she’ll slam a door and feel the same remorse and it escalates. So if she can get past the fit stage without doing any damage she calms down much faster.

these high-level outbursts are completely beyond your daughter’s control and really frightening. - Not half as frightening as they are for the daughter who is being attacked.

One proven strategy for parents who have difficulties controlling a child who then becomes violent is to imagine DD (the aggressive one) is putting her hand or foot on a hot gas stove rather than on a helpless smaller child.

See how quickly you'd react?

The professionals say controlling violence by the age of 8 or 9 is vital by the way, especially for ASD children. Massive Good Luck.

Often DD’s outbursts are directly linked to her hypersensitivity. It usually happens when she has to do something physical and tactile that requires co-ordination.

Yeah, good points. Sorry, we don’t really have that side of things to deal with so I hadn’t thought of it like that.

DD2 does not get upset if she shouts at us, slams doors, or throws things. Usually she would also deny hurting us, but I think this evening she realised that she had gone way too far. I am not sure how much her tears were because she had hurt her sister or because she was worried that she was now in trouble. She is also very concerned about school knowing what has happened, but I am not going to suggest DD1 lies about it.

i will need to have a chat with her about ways to calm down. But I am not sure if she recognises the need to calm down.

DD1 and DH are still at the hospital. I am so worried.

I think for the time being your focus needs to be on DD1 and let her know that although DD2 is sorry you have told her that doesn't make things ok - which I hope you have.

If you do eventually get DD2 assessed then that still is going to make it ok for her to hurt people, particularly not her own sister who has to share a home with her.

"that still ISNT going to make it ok" I meant to say.

It's incredibly common for children with ASD to mask it in school. However, the stresses of trying to hold it together inevitably build up and result in meltdowns at home in the evenings. There's an article about it here - www.autism.org.uk/about/behaviour/school-home.aspx

I hope DD1 is OK.

Oh no, your poor DD1. I really hope there's no real damage done. It very much sounds like your DD2 has some sort of sensory processing disorder, so talk to your GP about it, and don't let them fob you off. What triggered the meltdown this evening? I wonder if this might be a helpful set up for your daughter:

Sorry mostly I wasn't having a dig! I have family experience of this problem and believe you me, you'd be amazed how many people think abusing one child fixes the other one.

The awful truth is that if you don't nip this in the bud it gets worse and ironically the ASD child gets the disastrous result long term - they need their siblings more than most.

Thing is, a lot of us secretly don't think kids beating each other up is that bad, and it's only when others complain or avoid and isolate the child that we do anything. By which time you're looking at expensive professional intervention and trying to convince your friends that said DC isn't really a dangerous little brute.

The good news is that you can learn to control violence pretty effectively and it stops being a problem reasonably quickly.

she may deny hurtingyou as she has no memory of hurting you. If she has got so upset that her emotional part of her brain has taken over, she is not making any new memories. (learned on ASD course. )

calming mechanisms: deep pressure, relaxation videos daily which we have forgotten to do. carrying heavy stuff or pushing heavy stuff, or wheelbarrows (you know where one person walks on their hands) , being alone and quiet, rocking in one direction, foot massages, hand massages, plenty of food, drink and corrrect ambient temperature, no pain, reduce sensory input, (shut up talking if getting agitated and apply one of the calming techniques) (breathing slowly) If you need to restrain her to prevent your daughters getting injured, then I would do so.

Girls tend to be better than boys at copying 'acceptable' behaviour and so tend to get diagnosed later - I imagine the behaviours (while different for all children) are pretty much the same. Your DD definitely sounds as though she may be on the spectrum. My DS is the opposite - he's fine at home but school is very hard for him and he sometimes has outbursts or is disruptive in the afternoons - because he can't cope any longer. But many others can make it through the day - and the outbursts then come at home where they feel 'safe' enough to relax. Unfortunately physical aggression is probably more usual than not - although HF children hopefully learn to manage it better as they move into their teens. Good luck! It's not an easy journey but at least knowing what you are dealing with does help so much.....

DH just called - they are on their way home. X-ray showed nothing broken, so soft tissue injury. i am relieved but it is still going to take DD1 some time to recover.

Lana Not at all. It’s a great point and the hand in hot water example is really good! Made me think. I do have a younger DS but we haven’t yet had to deal with this issue. Touch wood. But if and when we do, that is absolutely the approach to take. There are certainly times for strong, unambiguous reactions and I think that’s one of them - and all the more resonant is that kind of approach is only sparingly used.

I feel for you OP.

What you should do, is make an appointment with your gp, you can say it is to discuss your dd. Before you go, make a list of everything you are concerned about and take it with you to give to the g.p and ask for a referral as you suspect your dd is on the Autistic Spectrum and you need support to help your dd2 cope better and also to protect your dd1. Alternatively you take the same list into school and ask the HT to arrange a referral for you.

I am a Mum to an Autistic 11yo ds and very likely on the spectrum and ADHD 9yo dd. Ds was 6 when he got his Autism diagnosis- his school did not agree that he may be autistic claiming he was doing great in school and that he had lots of friends- clearly they had never spent five minutes in his company as it only took a psychologist that long to see autism in my ds.

Girls do present differently, often they do not show signs of social issues until they are older and their friends mature whilst they don’t. But your description of your dd is very consistent with how ds presented at your dd’s Age and I do think that you would get a diagnosis for autism, based on those difficulties.

Listen to your dd, she is telling you the truth- school is incredibly overwhelming and it very likely takes everything she has not to melt down at school. Then when she gets home, a tiny trigger will result in an enormous meltdown and leave you thinking what on Earth just happened! Your dd will be struggling with sensory issues leading to sensory overload, as well as change/ transitions and lack of routine/ change of routine.

A big thing you could do to help your dd to calm down, is create a sensory space in her room- a weighted lap pad/ weighted blanket, relaxing music, sensory toys, sensory apps on the iPad. Encourage your dd to go to her room as soon as she gets in - you can give her a snack/ drink to take with her if needed. That time relaxing will help bring down the days pressures which have built up all day.

I would advise your older dd to stay out of her sisters way if she is overwhelmed (you will learn the signs such as increase in stimming and vocalising ). It is very difficult for siblings of an autistic child who is prone to meltdowns. I would try to spend one to one time with your older dd, lovebombing really helps in this situation.

I would have a look at the National Autistic Society website which is full of information :

www.autism.org.uk/about/what-is.aspx

YouTube is also a great resource.

I hope that your older dd is ok. Try not to blame yourself or your dd, she won’t have meant to hurt her sister.

I’m so glad all seems okay after A&E. My son is much easier at home than at school but as our younger boy is growing I fear the aggression and violence could turn on him in time. Some very interesting points to consider on this thread.