Bringing up children in London

[bells2]

Would be curious to get others thoughts on this. I am frequently berated by colleagues for choosing to bring up our children in an intensely urban area of London which as it happens is also very mixed i.e lots of different cultures, high unemployment and a good dose of social problems as well as the inevitable yuppies. We love our area, finding it very friendly with a good community spirit. Also, we were able to buy a house there twice the size of what we could have afforded in a swankier postcode. Best of all it is only 10 minutes from work. As we both work relatively long hours (although I only do 4 days) this is a very important consideration for us as it naturally means we get as much time as is possible with our children given that we also both want to work.

Anyway, most of the men I work with commute in for an hour plus each way (most closer to 2 hours) from large houses set in enormous grounds in rural-ish areas. Needless to say, they don?t see their children between Sunday night and Saturday morning although none of their wives work outside the home. I am constantly accused by them of being selfish etc for the choice we have made despite the fact that it means I have 2 hours with them every evening and my husband at least 1. We could of course sell up, move to the country and I could give up work. That would however leave my husband with a long and tiring commute and the prospect of him not seeing the children during the week. We just don?t feel happy with this scenario.

The Cherie Blair discussion has made me think about how people get hung up on issues such as the size of your garden, age of the mother and whether or not she works or not in judging the ?happiness? of a childhood. As it happens, I had what would be viewed by these standards as an idyllic childhood, growing up in the country in a large house with a big garden and being Australia, lots of sunshine. I did indeed have a very happy childhood but to my mind this is down to the fact that we were happy as a family rather than any other more material considerations.

Would be interested to hear if there are others out there who worry that bringing children up in an environment which is more Irvine Welsh than Enid Blyton is the wrong thing to do.

The most enormous house and garden in the world doesn't make up for hardly ever seeing your dad, IMHO.
A friend of mine is in this situation, and has been struggling with her 9yo son because at his age he really needs his dad around more - she's in no way a weak woman, but having dad around to put his foot down occasionally as well as to do the nice man-to-man things would probably make a difference.

My dh takes our kids to nursery most mornings, and is usually home in time to bath them and read them their bedtime stories. He wouldn't want to give that up for the world. Stick to your guns, Bells - a parent in the the hand is worth two on a commuter train any day

Azzie I like the a parent in the hand is worth two on the commuter train! I agree totally that we are doing what is best for us and anyone judging your choices doesn't really know the full picture about what is right for you and your family.

Just do what you feel comfortable with and enjoy the time you get with your family whilst your colleagues are faffing about on the trains!

You know what you are doing is best for your family. You know that you will only get support from us about your decision. Enjoy!

I live in deep, dark, dodgy Sarf London, in a nice house (one of the last 'affordable' corners of London) in a nice street with nice, quiet, arty neighbours. Yes, the alcoholics' drop in centre is ten minutes away, the corner shop has a massive display of Special Brew and the High Street has more pound shops than cappuccino outlets - BUT my dh can get home from work in 15mins (running!) which means he is here to give ds his tea and bath every night, there's a park at the top of road, I have lots of local friends with babies and also, I think it's good for kids to see that not everyone is rich and white. And the Korean nail bar does a manicure that takes about 10mins and costs £4. So on balance, I would say we are much better off where we are. That's not to say I don't fantasise about a manoir in France, but that's a different story.

where do you live aloha? sounds like my bit of the world....

It hardly matters where children are brought up as long as they have caring parents. There are up and down-sides to every environment. I can't believe how rude your colleagues are, Bells2, and quite frankly, I think you should tell them to put a sock in it. What a cheek.

Peckham end of Camberwell, actually. Where are you?

Sorry, I meant up-and-coming Camberwell, of course.

We have several acquaintances who have upped sticks to the country as soon as they got pregnant and frequently say things like Ugh, London is such a dirty environment to bring up a child, full of crime, misfits, drugs etc.
I am a Londoner born and bred and am brimming with ideas to rerun some of my childhood pleasures with ds - there is so much to do here, even more than when I was little, and with a shortish commute more time to do it in even if you both have to work outside the home. I just wish my rather dismal suburb was as vibrant and entertaining as Aloha's and Bells'. We do have an offie with a grand display of Special Brew, of course. You stay put until you all want to move on, Bells - I am sure living in the country brings plenty of its own stresses. They couldn't possibly be envious at work could they? Or could some of the other mothers have found out that there is an alternative to living in a compound in Surrey?

Yes, I have such happy memories of the Natural History Museum and little Italian restaurants with big pepper grinders (!) and the adventure of going on the tube to visit my grandparents in East Ham, where there was a 'fantastic, magical market' as I remember it, probably a vast emporium of tat. I found London absolutely thrilling as a young child, plus there are plenty of trees on Peckham Rye (honest!).

Oh Azzie, I'll read the other responses in a minute but my first reaction is:

*What sexist attitudes from your colleagues!
*No, you are not doing the wrong thing - sounds like you have the best of both worlds (work, spending time with children, mixed population, interesting places to go, house you like)
*Agree with you about being happy as a family being the main consideration.
Will read what everyone else had to say now!

Sorry, I meant Bells2!

i am in brixton and dream of moving up to camberwell or peckham ryewhere there are perhaps fewer shootings!

bells, am mulling over your comments and trying to formulate my thoughts - i think a lot about this, but not come to any conclusions so far.

This isn't really related but as Bossykate mentioned Peckham (where dh works, btw) I was horrified by the news that a 2 year old boy was today crushed to death by a bus in Peckham High St. It mounted the pavement, crashed through safety barriers, the child was knocked from his mother's arms (who was heavily pregnant) and he was dragged under the wheels of the bus.

I just throw in my 2pence, it be about all its worth. Bells2 perhaps 'maybe most of the country pumpkin male colleges are a ickle bit threatened by a female (esp. a Mother) presence in the working world, as it confuses their role as bread winners.

Umm? would I swap my town house for a cosy cottage that had symmetrical curtains hung at each window, a garden path you would skip along admiring the tidy beds of flowers? (This could the story of Little Red Riding Hood)?. Narh I would miss the humming of the vehicles driving on the motorway at night, being home before dark, (lessens the odds of being mugged) and then there is that police helicopter usually fortnightly that tests the vibrations of your house.

I need sleep.

I lived in the country as a child, and now live in a large village (almost a small town really) on the edge of a larger town.

Living in the country was great, but as a child I had to be driven everywhere - rural bus services were impossible even 25 yrs ago. My kids will be able to walk round to their friends houses when they're older. In a lot of villages there isn't much choice regarding toddler groups and other activities (although the community spirit may be v. good) and you still have to drive to get to a lot of things, like swimming pools etc. We are very happy not to be tied to the car all the time, for health and environmental reasons. The thought of being totally reliant on the car has definitely put us off moving out into the countryside.

itHER, the police helicopters only once a fortnight? ours kindly check the foundations of our house on a daily basis. The big impact on our day-to-day lives immediately after sept 11th (apart from the emotional ones..) was the lack of noise as all the helicopters had suddenly been grounded!

Having been brought up in the country and having to commute to the city for school and all social activities I am a completely confirmed city dweller. Every time we have those thoughts about roaming free in the wild country we think of the horrible commuting time into work ,the fact that we would need two cars, access to 100s of different things (pools, libraries, supermarkets etc) we get real very quickly. The biggest thing that we really don't ever want to give up is living 10minute walks from work - it makes the world of difference to us both spending time with ds.

PS and we live in sunny Aberdeen, looking to move to a bigger city next time round

Hi Bossykate - well, we had a shooting last night round the corner. I slept through everything, including convoys of police vans, helicopter and buses diverted down our street... Obviously there are pros and cons to everywhere, but having local friends within 5mins walk and having dh home by 6 almost every night still swings it for me, so far.

hi bells

warning - very, very long!

seems like there are actually a number of issues embedded in your post.

*attitude of colleagues
*the "best" environment in which children should live
*time spent with the kids due to commute - linked to the previous point of course

first off, my mother would say that your colleagues are very "passremarkable" - by which she would mean that they didn't have sufficient good manners to keep their opinions to themselves and stop passing remarks. i agree with itHER that it's probably due to the fact that you are a threat, and undermining you as a working mother somehow makes them feel there is less competition in the workplace. i am the only woman in my position at work who has children. my male colleagues who have children all live in commuterland and their wives don't work. however, for whatever reason, they don't pass comment - they would get very short shrift if they did! it's up to you and your husband to weigh up the advantages and disadvantages of living in a particular place and act on them accordingly - no-one else's business!

secondly, i too live in inner london, and i endorse the advantages people have mentioned - exposure to a diverse (ethnically, socially, economically) community, close to vibrant centres of culture, short commute etc. i confess i have had serious doubts about where we live as an optimal (sorry - corporate speak, but it seems like the most appropriate term) environment for ds and any other children we might have.

in the three years we have lived here we have been exposed to the following more or less on our doorstep:
*racially motivated bombing
*rioting
*numerous shootings
*hard drug dealing at all hours of day and night
*burglary
*dh threatened with a knife
*experimental policy on cannabis possession
*random knife attack in which 3 people (grandmother, mother and 8yo boy) were hospitalised
*yes we have the frequent police helicopters too! why do they always seem to circle over our house?!

and that is without the standard inner city problems of run down, dirty environment, dreadful secondary schools (although the local primaries are excellent). and yes just in case it is going through anyone's mind, i have volunteered to be a school governor in lambeth, so as not be just complaining without contributing to a solution.

yes we did know what the area was like before we moved, but the weighting of the advantages and disadvantages has completely changed since we have had ds... plus we don't take advantage of the excellent restaurants, nightlife etc on our doorstep like we used to!

so i'm constantly thinking about moving. the main issue for us is that i'm the "breadwinner" and it could be difficult for me to find a job outside london.

leading on to - finally - the last point! i just do not understand how the men i work with are content only to see their children at the weekends. i suppose it is culturally acceptable as they are the breadwinners, and anyway, the kids are with their mother who is obviously the natural carer! or at least that is how they justify it to themselves and to their wives. i think it's very sad. reminds me of that old cliche about being on one's deathbed - no one ever wished they'd spent more time at the office (or on the commute!)

anyway, to sum up, bells, it's no one else's business, and an inner city environment can be an extremely beneficial environment for chidren (despite the disadvantages) especially if it means they see more of their parents due to a reduced journey time.

btw - what are your thoughts on state v. private education?

Bossykate, slightly off thread, but how did you find being a school governor and what duties do you have? I too am seriously considering this as would love to help local education as I think it is so important. I'm in Southwark. The shooting shook us a bit, but dh's work is so close and I love the fact we have time as a family morning and night which I really think is more important than green fields. I think (hope) that the shootings are drug related so won't affect us. I think the cannabis policy is insane.

hi aloha and bossykate
just round the corner from you in peckham but at east dulwich end
we love the immediate area we live in, but we do worry about the schools...ds is 3 so have to decide soon, how old are yours? are you into these decisions yet?

hi aloha & jemw

ha! i volunteered through the "school governors' one stop shop" (they leafleted our area earlier in the year). they responded to my application with a phone call which sounded very positive - but I have yet to hear which school i am matched with. reminds me i must chase it up.

if you want to know more there is a mumsnet thread - search on "school governor" in the subject line.

the dfes website also has info on the subject.

will try and find the school governors one stop shop - they have a website, but i'll have to google it - tomorrow and report back.

my ds is only one and i'm already looking at the secondary school league tables! so only ten years to hope for an improvement! started looking at the primary ones when still pregnant - just a tad anal perhaps!

Hello there Bossykate. What a thoughtful and interesting post. I am about to leave for hols (yippeeee!) so a bit pushed for time.

First of all I should say that my colleague's comments in the context of a city trading floor are very very mild (sample comment yesterday from one of them: "Gosh you have thin wrists, my co*k is thicker than that".....).

Second of all, many of the comments you make about your area ring true for my own and I DO worry about my children's safety, particularly as they get older. But unless my husband has a dramatic change of career which is unlikely in the foreseeable future, I can't imagine any house move as meaning that he doesn't see his children during the week. None of us can bear that idea. And I should also say that the diversity of our area I think, has much to recommend it as a place to grow up.

Re private education, I am rather ashamed and disappointed to say that we are gong down the private route. Our local schools are not happy places with drugs and bullying a real issue. Frankly, I am just too scared to send our two there - an emotion I'm certainly not proud of.

I am not especially upset about my colleague's comments but it did make me wonder if we are doing the right thing which on balance I think we are.