Bringing up children in London

[bells2]

Would be curious to get others thoughts on this. I am frequently berated by colleagues for choosing to bring up our children in an intensely urban area of London which as it happens is also very mixed i.e lots of different cultures, high unemployment and a good dose of social problems as well as the inevitable yuppies. We love our area, finding it very friendly with a good community spirit. Also, we were able to buy a house there twice the size of what we could have afforded in a swankier postcode. Best of all it is only 10 minutes from work. As we both work relatively long hours (although I only do 4 days) this is a very important consideration for us as it naturally means we get as much time as is possible with our children given that we also both want to work.

Anyway, most of the men I work with commute in for an hour plus each way (most closer to 2 hours) from large houses set in enormous grounds in rural-ish areas. Needless to say, they don?t see their children between Sunday night and Saturday morning although none of their wives work outside the home. I am constantly accused by them of being selfish etc for the choice we have made despite the fact that it means I have 2 hours with them every evening and my husband at least 1. We could of course sell up, move to the country and I could give up work. That would however leave my husband with a long and tiring commute and the prospect of him not seeing the children during the week. We just don?t feel happy with this scenario.

The Cherie Blair discussion has made me think about how people get hung up on issues such as the size of your garden, age of the mother and whether or not she works or not in judging the ?happiness? of a childhood. As it happens, I had what would be viewed by these standards as an idyllic childhood, growing up in the country in a large house with a big garden and being Australia, lots of sunshine. I did indeed have a very happy childhood but to my mind this is down to the fact that we were happy as a family rather than any other more material considerations.

Would be interested to hear if there are others out there who worry that bringing children up in an environment which is more Irvine Welsh than Enid Blyton is the wrong thing to do.

Our nearest school is Oliver Goldsmith's where poor Damilola Taylor went, and he's CERTAINLY not going there. Dog Kennel Hill opposite Sainsbury's has a good reputation, excellent ofsted reports etc but I suspect were not in the catchment area. I suspect that the schools will be the crunch time for us with the area. I have put him down for a nice private nursery which now has a prep school attached. I really resent the idea of paying for primary education and would never do it if I wasn't actually worried about my son's safety and mental and physical wellbeing in a local school, and I have to admit, I do worry about that with some schools round here. And spurred on by this thread I have now emailed back about being a school governor. I have to admit, I haven't really thought about secondary schools as anything could happen in ten years (I hope!).
Any more Camberwell/Peckham/Dulwich Mumsnetters out there?

BTW ds is nearly 11 months.

hello all

have put a school governors' info update on this thread www.mumsnet.com/s/Talk?topicid=43&threadid=294&stamp=020809113522#69154

bells - glad they didn't upset you. how do you put up with those comments? i work in an investment bank but try and stay as far away from the trading floor as possible. i cheer every time some woman is brave enough to take them on at a tribunal. have a wonderful holiday!

state v. private education. that will be the crunch point for us too. it's one thing to extol the virtues of a diverse inner city area, but then to exclude one's child from it through private education! as i said, we are lucky enough to have very good state primaries within 5/10 mins walk of us. of course, whether we are actually in the catchment area for either is another matter. if the secondaries were as good, wouldn't even consider going private. another factor for us is that going down the private education route means that i will be committing myself to working in a high pressure city job until they are 18. hmm don't think so. need to give ourselves room to maneuvre (i have forgotten how to spell that) financially to give us options when/if future children arrive and i could then possibly make changes to my working life.

i'm starting to feel a little trapped by it all tbh...

Yes, I would probably have to go back to working in an office/flog myself to death at home if ds went to a private school - esp private secondary such as Dulwich college. And that thought makes me feel sick...

Dog Kennel Hill school has a good reputation and as you say is doing well on the ofsted reports - but the catchment area is small - we are outside it, batters your old estate makes up most the places I think.

Our nearest school is grove vale now renamed as goose green as under special measures so not one we want to consider.

All the decent schools here are private and it is such a big commitment in terms of cost

Just popped out to get some cigarettes and sweets (bad I know...) and absolutely everywhere was shut. I had to go into a dodgy pub in the end. Even then I was reprimanded because it was after last orders and I had to practically beg for the right money to put in the fag machine. I'm supposed to be living in a vibrant capital city but everything's shut at just past 11.30 on a Saturday night! I'm blowed if I can see any benefits to living bang smack in the middle of London sometimes.

Mind you, the main reason I think that we'll move out of London eventually is that there's no property even remotely in our price range, and since my boys arrived just over 3 years ago I've really yearned for a bit more space and a garden. If my partner and I play our cards right we might actually approach financial solvency in a year or two but not to the extent that we could get a foot on the property ladder or rent somewhere a bit more decent within greater London, I'm afraid. If we do leave I'll miss the diversity and "Irvine Welshness" as you put it Bells2, immensely, not to mention my dad, sister and in-laws, all of whom are confirmed Londoners and regular visitors. I think my boys would miss out on many positive things (though I'm sure they'd reap the benefits of other, different experiences elsewhere). I too am a Londoner born and bred and had a very happy childhood here. The big smoke is a great place to grow up, with gad zillions of facilities right on the doorstep- unless of course you want ciggies past 11pm!

I definitely wouldn't consider private education for my children unless they were unhappy at school and there was no other option. I was educated and have worked in London state schools and, while they are very variable,- just as private schools are, I imagine- I am confident that it is possible to get an excellent education within the state system and that many of the fears re:safety, mental & physical well-being etc mentioned in some posts here are unfounded. Personally, I would be devastated if my sons turned out to be as ignorant and arrogant as a minority of the people I've met who have been through the private system- particularly men for some reason. (Tim from Big Brother 3, anyone?! Not atypical in attitude when compared to others of his educational ilk, I'd say, though of course there are equally odious folk who've had a state education, as BB3 proved!)

I wish that this vicious circle of poor schools being rejected by the very parents who are most likely to demand high standards for their children- and thereby benefit the school as a whole- didn't exist. There is such a mass exodus of middle class children from state schools in London at the moment. I'm afraid I'd be very unpopular with some of you guys here, as my solution would be to abolish private schools and impose a law that required parents to send their children to the nearest school. The best teachers and substantial extra subsidies would then be allocated to schools in the most deprived areas. Uh-oh, I am sounding more like a red by the minute, so I'd better stop now.

Scummy, agree with you about schools - bring on that law.

I don't know about Tim, Batters! I think that thin veneer of confidence with which some public schools like to polish ALL their children- exacerbated and endorsed by the kid's general lifestyle, of course- can be a double edged sword. Tim is certainly not the first ex public school boy to display a type of bumptious arrogance combined with a definite dimness. Appalling combination, I think. If you're Jeremy Paxman arrogance is just fine- after all the man is sexy and clever. If you do not have such natural gifts it is important to work on your personality a bit more and I think it's clear that, in common with others I have met, Tim's school (in combination with other factors) has done him no favours whatsoever!

www- thanks!

Hi SueW- How's dd doing? Hope there are plenty of sweeties (or other comforts) available for her!

Batters, I have all those things nearby too plus the sea, beaches and probably best of all, France (1 hour by ferry Dover to Calais, 35 minutes by EuroTunnel Folkestone to Calais, 2 hours by Eurostar Ashford to Paris, 2 hours by Seacat Newhaven to Dieppe, etc,etc). I like knowing I am only 20 miles away from the Continent. Also London is still near enough, Hastings or Battle to London Bridge/Charing Cross or Cannon Street.
Feel I have to defend the sticks occasionally.

scummy, i sometimes think something very radical such as you propose may well be the only answer. certainly i would worry about the values and associations ds was acquiring in the private sector (if we were able to afford it - highly unlikely) as well as in the state system. i think your post is especially useful and credible as you too live in the inner city. i do get quite annoyed with people sometimes who get on their high horse about state education (i.e. very pro and totally anti private) when they live in affluent suburbs, or rural areas where the issues are simply not the same.

Batters I live further east along the coast now but lived in Brighton for 9 years. I lived in London a long time ago with dd1 and still miss it for the culture. That's why I take dd2 up frequently.The sea air is quite addictive though.
The state schools are terrible in my town but some private schools attract people you wouldn't believe could exist outside a Mike Leigh film. I like that my dd will be in a class of 8 in year 1 this September rather than 36. Isn't schooling just the biggest worry of parenting? When we have tinies we don't realise how much it will concern us. I know some of you guys are not quite at that stage yet but I wish you luck in making these hard decisions. Hope to see you all at the Brighton lunch on October 5.

CAM - very well put , the state school nearest me 'ain't the best' which is why my dd (7) is very happy in her class of 10 kids. If the state school was better , she'd be there ...it'd save us a fortune

Funny what we worry about..
we live in a lovely village in the midlands. 15 minutes from work, culture shops etc great schools (state) nearby but not very ethnically mixed or diverse and althogh DH leaves for work at 8.45 and is home usually at 6 we agonise over the "middle englishness" of our kids experience
Bells"2 IGNORE your colleagues