The gradual loss of innocence....

[papa99]

Dear Parents (particularly those we are separated)

I am a Dad and have been blessed with an incredible son. He is exceptionally beautiful, intelligent, polite (most of the time), generally very well behaved and an absolute joy to be with. However, after 51 months, he has (for the first time) hurt me. Intentionally.

I expect I am being over dramatic but parenting is extremely complicated and I am totally committed to getting this right. For all the years of learning stuff at school we are expected to make do with a few hours of NCT classes and get on with it. So I really do need the benefit of your collective wisdom please.

The issue is:

My son knows he upsets me if he says ‘I don’t want to see you I want to be with Mama’ and now he started doing this every time I tell him off.

Is this nasty manipulative behaviour for a 4 year old or is this normal?

It may be helpful if you understand the context.

Mum and I separated 16 months ago (an appalling failure I know, and the guilt breaks my heart (it was my fault we split up), but trust me it is not as selfish as it appears- he is actually much better off as there was way too much unhealthy conflict). So I spend all week excitedly counting down the minutes until Mum allows me to see him again. I lie awake each night so excited to see his little face and planning our weekend of ‘boys’ time, the best time’.

He has completely redefined what ‘joy’ is to me. All the things that brought me joy before, whether falling in love, music (making, listening, performing), spending time with family and friends, pursuing and achieving a successful career etc. all of thing were/are amazing. But when I am in the woods with my boy and we are looking for big bad wolves, giants or witches; or we are hiding from Mr Todd and Tommy Brock; playing hide and seek; asking the ‘boys and girls’ to play; collecting sticks and stones for his backpack (for his ‘work’ he says); gathering flower for Mama; being good or bad pirates steering the ship away from sharks in pursuit of treasure; feeding the ducks; pretending to be lions scaring the pigeons; making ‘soup’ with leaves; role playing as superheroes; making up stories (saying a line each); singing Old Macdonald or 5 little monkeys on the swings; creating dinasours with shadows; playing football/tennis/tag/I spy etc. then there is nothing in the world that can touch it. Time stands still. It is pure magic and brings more happiness than I have ever experienced, dwarfing all other previous joyful moments in my life. The only sadness it brings is knowing one day it will end and he will think the same as us adults - a walk in park will simply revert to being a walk in the park. And for a period (in around 10 years) I am sure his Dad will be the last person he wants to go the park with!

But for now, each time, there is just this incredible huge massive glow of utter happiness inside me.

We both love every second. So when, during our limited time together he has now started to tell me he’d would rather be with Mum (on the occasional time I tell him off), it really breaks my heart. Unfortunately he has seen me shed a few tears in response (not sobbing, just the occasional wisftul teardrop!). So he knows it upsets me but still does it – is that not really nasty? I can’t imagine making my Mum cry when I was little and then making here cry again on purpose because I did something wrong.

He has now done this several times - Every single time I told him off.

One of the many things that make me proud of him is that his Nursery reports said he is the first child to show empathy. I have always told him that after love, empathy is the most significant and valuable emotion. It is the key to living a great life, being a kind understanding person. It is fundamental to all our inter-reaction with others whether eg sharing toys or joining in games.

So if he shows and understand empathy, does that make him even more nasty when he deliberately upsets me?

How should I deal with this situation?

More generally, what milestones in the gradual loss of innocence have you experienced and how did you handle them?

The first we experienced was when he was about 3 and a boy at Nursery hurt him, on purpose, for no reason. He was baffled as I sadly reflected ‘ welcome to the real world’…

Many thanks in advance

J.

TL;DR?

He's 4. You have massively let him down already (I'm guessing 'your fault' for the divorce was an affair or worse?), let him be angry at you and show that in the limited way he can. You are the afult, you have to suck it up.

Adult not afult

I think it's a really normal response. He may be able to show empathy but at just 4 his brain isn't developed enough to put all of the bits together and use it day to day as an adult would. He's still very little this isn't about him trying to hurt anyone.

I think you’re overthinking this, perhaps because of your own feelings of guilt. This is perfectly normal 4 year old behaviour. It’s a really rough age and it can be especially hard if you aren’t the primary parent. I worked long hours when mine was 4, leaving for work before she woke up and not back until bedtime. We experienced similar things. It’s just how kids express that they miss you and are struggling with the change. They need boundaries and understanding really, not telling off. They’re just learning to deal with big emotions. It’s hard, but you have to check your feelings a bit and not take it too personally. It’s not personal really, it’s a developmental stage.

It’s not “a loss of innocence” children are ultimately selfish creatures, they learn empathy and generosity as they grow up, not the other way round.

If babies were 6ft tall they’d rule the world.

He is manipulating you, because it works. Because you show him it works every time.

He’s far less likely to do it if you react differently.

You don’t give into tantrums do you? Well this is no different. Either ignore or brush it off and move on.

His world is very small. His concerns are ultimately selfish. He doesn’t really understand how you feel, he doesn’t understand all the baggage you carry. He just wants to distract you from telling him off.

Seems to be quite successful at it too.

Sorry, what? He's 4. You are really overthinking this. My son is 4 and he regularly prefers one parent over another (we are not separated).

You are over thinking this.

When one of us tells our DD off, she goes to the other and says 'X (insert name of parent here) is being MEAN to me'. She's 2.

They get cross at being told off and play parents off against each other, separated or not.

Oh FFS. It's completely normal, that's what 4 year olds are like. He might show some empathy but he certainly doesn't understand empathy. You really shouldn't be crying in front of him about this, he loves you, you're his father. Anyway, how do you know that he's not saying the same to his mother when she tells him off...!!?

Yes you are over thinking it! 4 year olds want the world to revolve around them... along with 1,2,3,5,6..... year olds.... you get the picture, right?

If he’s needs told off it also has to be very short....just a daddy says no! If he then throws at you I want to be with mummy.....don’t react just distract! Oh look at this little bug over hear.... he’s testing his boundaries. He’s had a reaction before so he will do the same again!

Good luck!

You need to model empathy to him if he says “I want mummy” tell him that you know he does and that’s fine-he’ll see mummy tomorrow. And you really, really must not let him see you cry-that’s far too much scary power to put in the hands of a 4 year old. You must never let him feel responsible for your happiness or sadness. Acknowledge his feelings honestly then move swiftly on to a spider, or an ice cream or a new song.

51 months?

He's four. He doesn't have the complexity of thought that you're crediting him with. Of course he wants to be with mummy if you're telling him off - he probably says the same to her. And I bet she laughs rather than cries. All kids are manipulative and a bit selfish, it's a survival technique.

I think you have some deeply peculiar ideas about four year olds they have to learn empathy and politeness from having it modelled to them by adults. Left to themselves they are cute, tiny manipulators, and that's entirely normal. They're figuring out the rules of how the world works and his world blew up when you and his mother separated.

What used to be normal daily time with you has now turned into you being terribly emotionally invested in your less frequent times together in fact, you're doing the classic Disney dad thing, where every second has to be special and wonderful and he's trying to figure out the new rules, and to establish some kind of control on the new situation.

In the nicest possible way, stop idealising and then demonising your son, who is behaving like a perfectly ordinary four year old by playing his parents off against one another, and can see what's getting a reaction from you.

Your weirdly judgemental language suggests you've got some things of your own to work on -- he's not being 'nasty', he's being a child. And you need to stop expecting him to be some kind of human angel, and to go along with your melodramatic wistfulness about time not stopping and how he won't want to go to the park with you when he's 14. And enough with the crying.

No one is demonising you for the divorce, but you did completely alter the fundamentals of his life. It's up to you, and your ex, to control your own emotions and be calm and stable around him.

‘boys’ time, the best time’. - What? No it's just him spending some time with his dad.
It sounds to me like you are making the whole thing a parenting competition. That's not what a 4 year old needs.

If you speak the way you write I can’t blame him for wanting to be with his mum

The only sadness it brings is knowing one day it will end and he will think the same as us adults - a walk in park will simply revert to being a walk in the park. And for a period (in around 10 years) I am sure his Dad will be the last person he wants to go the park with!

I wanted to pick up on this ^^ because it’s quite strange.

Why would your son at 14 bring you any less joy than he brings you at 4?

He’ll still be your son. Walk in the park won’t be playing like you do now, sure, it will be chatting to his Dad taking about a million things, getting advice on girls (or boys) or taking about sports or music or school.

My D.C. are 11yo. They are fantastic fun to be with. Our DS and DD come hill walking or cycling or running with us, go to concerts with us, go shopping for clothes with us, discuss books and film and art and politics.

This isn’t the pinnacle of your relationship with him. If you do a good job you will have a fantastic time with him every year.

He doesn’t need to be perfect, and neither do you.

Thanks very much for your advice. Just to clarify - I didnt have an affair, she left me. It is boring but I didn't save enough cash to pay the tax man so we lost the house and I lost my career (as a lawyer). Beautiful Russian women aren't so keen on the 'for poorer bit'. So I messed up and lost everything. My fault but I didn't have an affair!

About the when he's 14 thing - I meant typically 14 year olds would rather be drinking cider and playing spin the bottle than walking in the park with their parents.

Anyway it was interesting to hear others views. Doodleygirl was an interesting reminder at how unpleasant and negative people can be. Do you really want to be that person? Do what I say to him and push the empathy button - how do you think I felt when I read that? You think that's ok?

Anyway, the way some people manipulate others to achieve their own ends is deeply unpleasant so it was a genuine concern that my son hurt someone who loves him several times. If a grown up did something similar I would think they were not a good person. but you are basically saying get over it he's only 4, so thanks!

"If a grown up did something similar I would think they were not a good person. but you are basically saying get over it he's only 4, so thanks!"

Yes, he's only 4. He's only had 51 months on the planet to learn empathy and how to be polite and get along with others. You're asking an awful lot of him. Imagine you moved to an alien planet with different social rules, and it took you a few years to learn their language and then they expected you to understand all their complex social rules a year or two later, and label you as an evil creature because you hadn't learned what to say in all circumstances yet?

A grown up being selfish or rude is different because they've have 20+ years on the planet, and their brain is mature, so should know what the rules of society are. If they break them, they are doing it on purpose, not because they don't know yet what the rules are.

Beautiful Russian women...? Yeah, all like that.
What a load of *%

Rhythmlessman, it was just a joke mate. She says the same thing - they don't fvck about with loser English guys who mess up like me!

You don't seem to know anything about normal child development and child behaviour. Maybe read some parenting books or go on a parenting course. Your health visitor or perhaps the nursery could help you with that.

You are ascribing adult motivations to a child who cannot possibly have those motivations. You are also applying very black and white thinking. A child (or adult!) isn't a bad person if they say something hurtful. People aren't "good" or "bad".

He's not being manipulative or intentionally hurtful. He's trying to learn how things work and what the rules of human behaviour. Don't judge him and condemn him, realise that you as the adult are the teacher and the mentor and don't take it personally.

Young children can be hurtful, but I don’t believe it with conscious intent. They learn the ability to be kind rather than being born with it.

Honestly, at 4 it is totally normal. Empathy is still developing and he is testing out what words have an effect. My 8 and 6 yr olds have been known to say similar, and I know they don't mean it.

It’s normal. Kids are tyrants.

You need to stop expecting him to understand and fulfil whatever your emotional needs are. He can’t. He’s 4.