This is the year I deal with my dd’s refusal to do things. Help please!

[Bathbombs]

Dd is 9. We’ve been dealing with awkward behaviour for a few years now so it’s pretty embedded.

E.g-yesterday dd said she’d like to go for a walk with some friends tomorrow. I asked friends if they’d like to, they said yes and suggested a new place to go.
Told dd where they’d suggested and she said ‘I’m not going’.
This is her immediate response to suggestions of anything new or that she hasn’t specifically requested herself.

What follows tends to be a series of negotiations with her eventually ending up doing as originally planned but with some added incentive (e.g stop at gift shop etc.) and everyone feels like they’re waking on eggshells with her.

I realise it’s probably her being anxious but it’s a really unhelpful response and behaviour. I feel like she gets her own way all the time (even though she doesn’t because we end up going where we’ve said)

She has form for refusing to leave the house if she doesn’t want to go somewhere and crying/clinging on to me if she doesn’t want to do something (e.g new swimming lessons a few months ago)

Vast majority of the time she is absolutely fine once doing whatever it is-with swimming she was joining in perfectly as soon as I managed to get her in the pool albeit with some dirty looks in my direction for a few minutes.

I really need to get out of this pattern of her being so manipulative and help her with some alternative strategies.

She does get to chose things to do herself quite a lot so it’s not like she has no control over her life.

Probably being anxious? Has she said this?

The interesting thing about this is that it's a fun thing (walk with friends) that she's refusing to do, not something boring like tidying her room or whatever.

Have you considered ASD / PDA?

DD is like this. We have worked out that it's anxiety from not being in control, and she really would rather stay in her own room rather than try something new, however wonderful the new thing is.

We don't do the bribery stuff, as that just leads to more - and bigger bribes, and we didn't want to carry on down that road.

We do talk to her about what is making her anxious and think of ways to help with that. For example, we went to a friend's house at the weekend and she was adamant she wouldn't go - turns out that she thought that they had a big dog, she would be scared of the big dog and get hurt by it. We were able to reassure her that friend has a medium dog, he is friendly but that friend would put him in the garden while we were there. (Of course by the time we left DD was feeding the dog treats from her hand... )

But it's not always so easy to resolve, and I completely get what you mean about walking on eggshells around her

HAve you come across The Explosive Child book by Ross Greene?

PDA jumped out at me too as the parent of a 9yo with PDA.

What works for DS is “ok, well your friends are going for a walk at X place, you can go if you like or you can stay at home, it’s your choice” he knows how it works now so we are mostly managing it well but in the initial trail periods of any new techniques it’s hard work. Lots of trial and error to get here. What works for my DS may not work with your DD.

I used to fall into the trap of negotiating, changing the arrangements and offering incentives but it led to a spoiled child who expected to control every element of every situation and even when he could, something out of his control would happen and it would be World War III. So now he has a very simple choice a or b. No incentives offered but if he has behaved appropriately during the event which I can tell has been difficult for him then I will praise him afterwards. I have to be very careful though as he knows when he is being patronised and hates any reference to him being “different” so praise, if phrased wrongly or my tone is wrong can also lead to a complete meltdown. It’s a tightrope.

Yes she has said she’s anxious (not in exact words) I’m sure this is the reason but still need better strategies.

She’s plenty awkward enough about less fun things too but we don’t have the same refusal.

She always wants things on her terms (I guess most people do?) but her terms are very specific!

We keep thinking about asd but then dismissing it again.

Maxbondi-yes that trap is exactly what we have fallen into.
I don’t know much about PDA. I’ll look at it and the explosive child book.
I know if I said go or don’t go she’d say she wouldn’t go. Then (in this context because it was a walk involving parents too) that’s the rest of the family & friends’ day out spoilt at least because me or DH would have to stay with her. Maybe I should be more open with friends about what’s going on behind the scenes?

Set her a challenge to do exactly what she is asked to do for a whole day.
At the end of the day remind her - and praise- that nothing bad happened after doing as she was asked to do!

Bo Elven's books are really good, Sulky, Rowdy, Rude, is one and there's another I can't remember. He's also got videos on his website/YouTube.

My 3YO sounds like this already! Very much likes things to be on his terms. I'm assuming he's quite an anxious child. He has selective mutism and stutters, both of which I'm told are caused/aggravated by anxiety.

I don't really have any suggestions. I don't really negotiate with DS. He's still at the age where tantrums are expected, so I tend to just pick him up and carry him off when he's refusing to do something. I'm watching with interest for suggestions on how to manage the situation as he gets older.

My friends son is often like this and they find him better when he doesn't know in advance what is planned. That way he doesn't have time to get worked up about it. E.g once in the car you could mention in passing thAt such and such friend said they might be doing the same thing/going to same place?

Definitely be open with your friends. I used to think my son was just a naughty boy and I was so embarrassed but speaking with friends they shared their own stories about their children/ relatives and they are really understanding. I know I can ring a friend now and say “sorry but X is having a really off day and I can’t meet up with you” they understand exactly what I’m talking about and why I simply cannot risk bringing him because I’ve discussed his behaviours with them before. Some friends have also been able to recommend books and therapists etc.

FWIW setting DS a challenge to be perfect for a whole day would be a disaster. It would be an immense pressure on him and he would meltdown before breakfast. It’s just not how it works with him. Our best behaviour days are days when he has slept well, ate well and we’ve kept things as “light” and relaxed as possible in terms of my tone and how I’m approaching him. If he senses I’m getting angry or annoyed with him his alarm bells go off and he is in anxiety mode. I bite my tongue a lot and let a lot of things slide that my older DS would never have gotten away with.

You’re the parent. Don’t negotiate with her bad behaviour. That’s why people are bursting to label their child with some condition when in reality they’ve just been spoilt and indulged all their childhood. If she says she doesn’t want to do a fun activity, then leave her at home. Absolutely no bribes. Stop feeding the acting out with attention.

The last 3 posts show exactly how my thoughts about it ping from ‘naughty and spoilt’ to ‘anxious and not coping’ which is why I find it so hard to deal with.
FWIW she has missed out on lots of fun things and that’s fine but it’s difficult when it impacts on other people

ILoveMaxi your ds has allowed you to be his puppet if that's how you describe him having to do as he is told!!

Our younger son has ASD (they both do) and really struggles with anxiety over new places to the point that once he decides he has had enough or doesn't want to be there, it is very hard to get him out of this mindset. I am always very open with friends about this.

It is hard. I think it’s one of those situations were you need to have a chat with yourself and accept that it is what it is and being angry/resentful about it won’t change her. DS has a great therapist and her motto is that all behaviour is communication. DS does not want to be “bad”, it is not his intention when he wakes up in the morning to cause a scene in ASDA because he thinks another boy was talking about him. (A boy who probably wasn’t even aware of DS’s presence- DS is very hypervigilant and paranoid) my job is to help him communicate in a way that gets his feelings out without upsetting him or anyone else. It involves me doing a lot of watching and listening and stepping in to distract before it gets to the point of no return.

Oh santa 😂

Jesus. Do you genuinely believe you’re doing your child a favour by indulging his behaviour like you do? I’m genuinely intrigued. Are you going to call his job in 20 years time and tell his boss he’s not going to make work because he’s having an off day?

OP feel free to PM me if you want to chat further away from people who haven’t a clue. Or post in the behaviour board. There are loads of parents who have been there and get it.

My ds -then 8 - used to do that, it’s really hard work and he was just messing us around because he could. So now if he asks to go somewhere and I set it up, he goes. Or no electronics for a day. And if he behaves like a nightmare while out, same penalty.
It took about a week without his Nintendo to stop behaving like a brat .
Now he says he wants to go somewhere, or I suggest somewhere, and he says he’d like to or not. But no changing his mind or spoiling events for everyone else.
It felt mean at the time but has made a huge difference.

I have one of these. Her main concerns are dogs and her little sister getting car sick. What do you think your DD is anxious about? Mine hates the journey most - it's when she has least control. I'm better at what doesn't help - it doesn't help to go over and over all the things that won't go wrong. That just reinforces in her mind that the world is full of things which may go wrong. We try to talk about ways we deal with the world, but even then it only takes a little too much talk and she's looking for problems. I've started treating it in a more matter of fact way: "We're meeting Allie at a new park. We're leaving as soon as I've cleared the lunch things away. No, I don't know anything about it. Allie's parents recommended it." In general, she can self-calm. "Well, if Allie likes it then I probably will, right?" But I don't know how you encourage that. DD has been doing it for herself since she started to be able to talk in sentences.

It’s more her not wanting to do things that she hasn’t chosen even if (I think) she’d enjoy them when she gets there-days out, holidays, visiting friends etc.

She used to have massive anxieties about toilets following a urine infection-that’s when a lot of this started. She still likes to know if there will be a toilet in a destination but I think it’s just generalised now. Plus separation anxiety

What is it about the things she hasnt chosen. Dig a little deeper. Is it wanting to be in control, worrying about what if something unexpected comes up, it is not trusting other people to not stick to plans, is it the potential for loud noises, bad weather, big dogs, strange smells..... it might be several different factors.

Could you possibly get her assessed (privately as NHS takes years) by an educational psychologist. For executive functioning and ADD traits and general cognition, it will give you a very good steer on if you are dealing with an in built neurological set up, or a willful child. At good psychologist will also give you a tool box of techniques to use.

My DS is low functioning in the EF skill of shifting. So if plans change, he needs much longer to mentally catch up and adjust to the change. We have learned that if things arent completely set ahead of time, to warn him that they arent, so he is prepared for possible changes. Then if a change happens, we tell him and then leave him to think about it for 5 mins before asking for his response. And we tell him that what we are doing so he doesnt immediately say no etc.

We only know this because we had him assessed. Best money we ever spent as we were thinking he was just being difficult and obnoxious. Now we know its just something that he has to deal with for the rest of his life, and we can help him with now and teach him coping skills for the future (and suggest he doesnt go into a profession dealing with people who change their minds frequently!)

If it is anxiety, you have to tackle it as soon as possible as if it is left and accommodated, anxiety just gets worse. I would suggest professional help for this for some techniques. There are also some great kids books about managing anxiety, look on amazon

PDA is a very rare profile of behaviours which pervades every single aspect of a child’s life. A child with PDA resists almost every demand, even if it’s being told they are going to have their favourite icecream, because they just cannot bear somebody else being in control.

If OPs dd has made it to 9 with the main problem being a bit stroppy about doing a new activity, that is not PDA.

Genuine PDA is pretty incompatible with mass education, work and living normally in society, so it is insensitive to say to PP ‘what about when he has a job’ if her DS has extreme demand avoidance.