How would you have dealt with 4 year old?

[marmaladecats]

We had a nice time in the park this morning with 4.2 year old and 1 year old sibling. We decided to go for happy meals in McDonalds (massive treat, first time ever for DS,4) After the food was ready the baby started hearing hers, DS complained his fish fingers were too hot so I broke one into pieces to cool it down faster. At home I often break his food into pieces to cool it down.
This resulted in a screaming rage and tantrum. He kicked me arouns6 times unde the table with his wellies on (ouch). Was v rude to DH. As he wouldn’t stop shouting/kicking DH took him back to the car. He scratched DH quite badly on the cheek in the process. After the baby had finished her food I joined them at the car. We’ve been really struggling with his behaviour the past couple of months.
My question is how would you have dealt with this once home? Punishment? DS was still in a rage once at home, yelling and screaming. I’m at a loss on how to deal with this and feel like whatever we try isn’t stopping this crap.

Has he just started school? My son really changed then, I honestly think it was mainly exhaustion. Especially this time of year with the end of his first term looming, Christmas events, school stuff, all that structure and learning yada yada. However, I looked it up and 4-5 are notorious for asshole behaviour - developmental, which is reassuring but doesn't really help at the time.

My friend's usually placid 5 yo punched her in the face last year, and my 5yo kicked his toddler brother (he's never ever been fiesty / physical).

I think what you did was fine and you don't want to be ott with punishment - talking about it is good and how it made you feel etc. might help but I wouldn't flog it. As you say other things have been happening, it might be worth trying a reward chart (don't make it too complicated or ambitious) and also not overdoing it with him. Making sure he's getting enough sleep and some quality time with you. That one can be hard as you might not feel like it, but my son benefits enormously from a book snuggled up just the two of us or even a walk to the post box or a solo bed time. Good luck!

Minipie, I agree it is unusual. I’ve been around kids a lot and haven’t seen this kind of rage. He is growing quite quickly plus has learnt to read pretty fluently almost overnight. He has been waking early for a few months (eg 5.30 instead of his usual 6.30/45) so is tired too. Plus new nursery etc. He’s always been a bit challenging but this is something else. We may need to get help.

@ChoudeBruxelles Smacking/slapping denotes hitting with an open hand, not very hard. Hitting can also refer to punching. That's why I used smacking. I don't mind saying hitting, if you prefer - it's what I used with DD. If she hit me once, I'd say 'don't hit me, I won't put up with it'. Hit me again, I'd say 'if you hit me again, I will hit you back'. If she hit me a third time I'd hit her back.

Maybe if more parents did that, we wouldn't have so many nasty little feckers who think they can bully and hit other kids without any consequences.

Thanks likeamother that is useful advice.

You say he had a massive breakfast, so perhaps he just wasn't hungry.

Sounds quite likely he is knackered. Early waking is linked to overtiredness and obviously just makes it worse - missing an hour of sleep every day is going to have an impact. New nursery plus learning to read is equivalent to starting school in terms of tiredness I’d say, especially if the new nursery is more structured. This time of year is always tiring too with the cold weather and germs.

I would do some earlier bedtimes, lots of downtime, keep weekends and after nursery pretty quiet next term and see if it makes a change. Hopefully he will get a good rest over Christmas - don’t pack too much in!

I appreciate that the smacking kids debate is not what this thread's about, but I genuinely find snacking a small child who is defenceless against you is abhorrent.

OP's DS isn't acting out of malice, he's probably tired/frustrated/jealous of baby etc and is lashing out because he's a child. Of course it can be frustrating trying to control a young child when they're lashing out, but to hit them back is just awful. He's a child.

OP, you did the right thing imo.

Sethos funny how all of the little darlings I know who have regularly hit ds are the ones who are hit by their parents. It normalises violence. If you’re hit in retaliation why wouldn’t you hit someone else?

Mine went through phases like that. I definitely would NOT have saved their meal. At home, once they calmed down and had time out (timing time outs only began when they sat quietly on the step, of they move off, it started again, if they screamed, it started again, if they tried to hit me they got another minutes added on, and it started again).

At 4 they're a bit young to go hungry, so would offer something very plain to fill the tummy, AFTER they had calmed down and apologised.

When they fit older they had to state exactly what it was hey were apologising for, they had to state the bad behaviour. At 4 they're old enough to say 'sorry for screaming' or 'sorry for hurting you'. And yes, early on getting them to state the specific behaviour could lead to further tantrums.

This period can feel eternal, and it would sometimes go for months of frequent extreme tantrums before would die down again.

However, once the tantrum and punishment is over, then it needs to be OVER. You can't keep bringing t back up, and you can't stay in a bad mood.

I have had to, on occasion, say 'sorry, mummy is still feeling very upset. Sometimes when you hurt someone they can take a little longer to feel better. You need to play quietly on your own until I feel a little better' it does them no harm to know that their actions have can have longer consequences on others , especially if your child has tantrums in other settings, like nursery, hold indeed or school.

If you’re hit in retaliation why wouldn’t you hit someone else?

Because you discover that
a) it hurts
b) when you hit someone, they are liable to hit you back.

I think you did the right thing. Your DH removes him from the situation and your other child got to eat their food.

I actually have much more problems with my 1yo than my 4 yo. My 4 year old has always been really rational but I suspect my 1 year old will be different!

I personally (to my memory?!) haven’t ever hit anyone so I don’t intend to start with my children. I would also find it somewhat distasteful (and I would probably go nuts) if I saw my massive DH smacking/hitting our tiny child?!

We have the naughty step in our house. 2 warnings are given, and the third is a visit to the step. Consequences he understands because they are consistent. He spends a minute for each year of his age, so 4 minutes currently. If he doesn’t sit, the clock doesn’t tick. Sometimes he takes himself to his room to finish his tantrum before putting himself on the step. Agree with colly though, immediate consequences work best for us.

Change in nursery recently and a 1Yo sibling would say to me he's going through a load of changes that he doesn't know how to manage his feelings towards. His tantrums are most likely a way of acting up to get attention from you. Was it when his sister wanted feeding that he started acting up?

I found my eldest turned into a bloody nightmare at 4. After starting school, he didn't know what to do with himself on the weekends at home without a teacher constantly giving him something to do and he turned into a stroppy teenager. Ignoring the tantrums as hard as it is was the best option. He was doing it all for attention.

Next time it happens, video it. Once everyone has calmed down show him. It's amazing watching their reaction to their behaviour. My DD had very few tantrums, the last one she ever had was the videoed one. Interesting how embarrassed she was when she saw it. She was 4 at the time.

At no point did I say to 'lock' in the toilet OP! Stand outside yes but not lock the poor kid in. The idea is the same as removing to the car, to limit disruption to other diners and take away an audience as such. Plus toilets are quite yucky and dull.

In terms of smacking, I smacked my first two dc for a little while when they were about three until one day I realised that it didn't change anything, that often it was out of a loss of control on my part and I wasn't prepared to do it again. After that, I never smacked my first two dc again and my third and fourth have never been smacked. They are all very polite, kind children, one has been head girl, one has been a house captain and my son will go for head boy next year. I don't believe smacking is ever necessary.

DS complained his fish fingers were too hot so I broke one into pieces to cool it down faster

Did you tell him you were going to break them?
Was this the trigger?
If you had asked or told him you would break the fish to get would it have avertedthe tantrum?
Is he particular about things bein a certain way?
Start recording triggers and how he reacts. Behaviour has a reason for it....

My first thought was also if he didn’t want his fishfingers broken up. He was in public having a treat and may have felt it was a bit babyish to have his food broken up?

He completely overreacted, but I think you dealt with it really well. Removal from the restaurant then home.
I wouldn’t do anything else once home, other than when he’s really calm, ask him why he was so upset. I think this is really important. Often they’ll say “I don’t know”, but if you keep chatting about it, he might well tell you. You can then talk about how he should act next time something like that happens, so he gets to stay and have his treat.
Also you can keep reminding him if he starts getting upset again, “remember we talked about you getting upset, tell me what’s the matter, I’ll listen”.

(And I’m glad your ignoring the ridiculous smacking suggestions)

I think you did right. Anything as long as you don’t pretend it’s not happening. But I now have to eat a fish finger sandwich.

Have you tried a time in? Bear hug somewhere quiet (the car?) with him held firmly facing out so he can’t kick (catch his legs with yours if you have to) and just breathe calmly and ride out the storm. Let go once he’s calm and not before. You will find he calms faster if you are calm, too.

Sometimes being left alone fans the flames and a child really needs to feel safe and secure in their parent’s arms to calm down. It can take a while, but I found it a very helpful technique with preschooler tantrums.

Watch the section on tantrums in this.
Your d's has not learned to self modulate .... tho tiredness and exhaustion could con tribute...analyse his reactions ABC behaviour charts you may seed a pattern

Babies: Their Wonderful World, Series 1: 3. Becoming Independent: www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0bvfwpj via @bbciplayer

A tantrumn at 4 and escalating bad behaviour at a time when most kids start learning how to behave would raise red flags for an undiagnosed SEN issue to me. I suggest you book a meeting with his teachers without him, raise your concerns regarding what happens at home, and ask them if they have also experienced any issues.

@Sethos so hitting your kids, them seeing that it’s an apparently appropriate response to behaviour you don’t like, teaches them not to hit other kids....? Right.....

he can scream and rage (repeatedly shouting no) for an hr or more if we don’t work v hard to calm him down

This really stands out to me. If you are working very hard to calm him down, then his behaviour is getting an enormous reward. Any attention is good attention.

We have a close family member who is a child therapist I needed advice when my then DS4 would have sudden violent outbursts, never st school or with anyone else just with DH and I. His advice was to immediately praise good behaviour, no matter how trivial it was and how daft you sounded. Ie - if he is playing with his sister nicely say something like ‘ you are playing so nicely, I’m so proud of you ‘ or going into a shop and him behaving say when you leave ‘ that was brilliant behaviour in there , well done !’ All negative behaviour just remove from the situation, don’t try and bargain, bribe or reason. Your reaction in McD was fine , the next tantrum thou don’t have lots of verbal interaction. It worked with my son , be consistent, don’t shout . Good luck

@FenellaMaxwellsPony it teaches them that

• If you deliberately and repeatedly hurt someone, they are very likely to hurt you back.
• If you're willing to dish it out, you'd better be willing to take it.
• Unpleasant actions have unpleasant consequences - I'm in favour of using natural consequences with kids.

All pretty valuable life lessons, imo.

@LizzieSiddal I assume you're referring to me. I didn't suggest that the OP smack the child - I said what I would have done in the situation described, and when the OP said that he wasn't deliberately kicking her, I said I would have done exactly what she did - immediately remove him to the car until he'd calmed down.