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Parenting

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sitting listening to my baby cry...

74 replies

littlestrawby · 15/08/2018 20:42

I have a beautiful 8mo DD. She is an absolutely terrible sleeper. I am totally happy to just bf/rock to sleep whenever she needs it as I feel it's a developmental thing that she will come to in her own time but unfortunately things have come to a head with my DH as he's at his wits end.

We have started on a new routine with the help of a sleep consultant. I am completely again CIO or controlled crying but this consultant is all about multi-sensory, non-crying methods.

We're the third night in and my baby is struggling with it. I can hear her cry while my DH is putting her to bed (he is doing brilliantly) and trying to distract her from crying and its breaking my heart. I can't help but feel like I'm failing her and I just want to run up and feed her to sleep :( but I know my DH wants to continue to try this method and I don't want to carry on arguing about the sleep. And it would be amazing if it actually worked and she improved!!

Just feeling torn and terrible and can't bear it much longer :(

OP posts:
TittyGolightly · 15/08/2018 23:12

And no, they don’t show it to be beneficial. It depends on the measures you use.

CautiouslyPessimistic · 15/08/2018 23:14

Don't try to snow the thread with research showing it is harmful, titty - there's just as much showing it isn't.

I'm not advocating a position here - I'm just saying that the research is undecided on this issue (I work in the field) and presenting it as being otherwise is disingenuous when parents are trying to make the best decisions they can in pressured circumstances.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about these subjects:

TittyGolightly · 15/08/2018 23:15

“Three hundred twenty-six children (173 intervention) with parent-reported sleep problems at age 7 months”

First problem with that study. A parent with wildly unrealistic expectations around a small baby’s sleep is going to identify it as problematic.

It is NORMAL for babies and toddlers to wake at night. It is NORMAL for them to need help to get back to sleep.

CautiouslyPessimistic · 15/08/2018 23:15

"It depends on the measures you use"

Well quite.

CautiouslyPessimistic · 15/08/2018 23:18

Right, and your Swansea study which apparently shows that early weaning has no impact on sleep was refuted by this one recently:

www.nhs.uk/news/pregnancy-and-child/babies-fed-solids-earlier-sleep-better/

I'm not saying there aren't debates to be had about the studies and their merits - I'm saying you're being irresponsible by suggesting that there aren't. Find me a study, any study, and I'll find you one to counter it. Don't present this as case-closed when it isn't.

TittyGolightly · 15/08/2018 23:19

Don't try to snow the thread with research showing it is harmful, titty - there's just as much showing it isn't.

I agree. There is no single output. I’m just responding to a specific poster who says that research shows it can be beneficial. I’m showing that other research shows it might not be.

I'm not advocating a position here - I'm just saying that the research is undecided on this issue (I work in the field) and presenting it as being otherwise is disingenuous when parents are trying to make the best decisions they can in pressured circumstances.

I completely agree with you. Parents are making those decisions in a barrage of information that’s is telling them that babies shouldn’t be waking at night, should be self settling, not needing feeding at what is developmentally a crucial age.

That’s the issue. If HCPs etc were honest about what normal, biological development looks like then parents wouldn’t give themselves such a hard time about it.

But that doesn’t sell books/sleep consultancy/musical sheep.

TittyGolightly · 15/08/2018 23:21

Absolutely. Again, the media reporting on the weaning research was extremely misleading.

CautiouslyPessimistic · 15/08/2018 23:21

Again - none of this bears any relation to how I've chosen to parent, but it mightily frustrates me that people of either position come on here and accost stressed parents with studies purporting to show their perspective as scientifically validated.

There is no consensus on anything within the range of 'normal' parenting methods.

CautiouslyPessimistic · 15/08/2018 23:23

Ah ok I climb down off my high horse! We're apparently on the same side Grin

TittyGolightly · 15/08/2018 23:23

But these comments you have no issue with.

babies need to learn to sleep well and constantly feeding / rocking them to sleep after 6 months isn't needed

Absolute statement.

I am a HCP and do a lot of training on infants , attachment, mental health etc and all the training says that after six months good sleep is really important and sleep training is not going to have any negative affects.

Absolute statement.

Babies after six months don't need to be feeding throughout the night they need to be sleeping

Absolute statement.

TittyGolightly · 15/08/2018 23:25

And the OP asked for studies about nighttime intervention and attachment off the back of it. So a bit unfair to have a go at me for posting a relevant study or 2!

CautiouslyPessimistic · 15/08/2018 23:26

No I would dispute those as being certainties too - your posts just jumped out at me.

But yes, in the pantheon of advice out there the takeaway is broadly 'no one knows for certain, make the best choices you can balancing all the relevant variables and it will probably be fine'. I don't think most parents find that reassuring the way I do!

TittyGolightly · 15/08/2018 23:31

And now Ive disappeared down a James McKenna rabbit hole........ Grin

BertieBotts · 15/08/2018 23:47

TBH I disagree with most of the early responses and I don't like sleep training and would prefer (personally) to breastfeed an 8mo to sleep.

Sometimes in parenting you have to go out of your comfort zone, and try things which you don't feel totally happy with. Sometimes I think this is imperative for your relationship as it fosters respect and teamwork. Sometimes your instincts aren't the only way, and sometimes you have to let your partner try things even if they don't work. It would be impossible to parent and never do anything which didn't work. It's not the end of the world if something isn't right. The hugely important thing is to keep connected and communicative and stay respectful to each other. If he is so distressed by the sleep situation (and honestly it sounds like you are not really happy with the set up as it is anyway? You say in the OP it would be "amazing" if it worked) then it is reasonable to try to tackle it. Sometimes you need to compromise.

I don't think that the methods your DH was using would harm her. You did not go straight from co-sleeping to a harsh cry it out regime - he was with her, he was comforting her, he was distracting her, he was not being angry or aggressive or unreasonable, and you described him as "doing brilliantly". Sometimes a different approach is beneficial - children do have two parents and one does not automatically trump the other, unless what one is suggesting is abusive/neglectful.

It is reasonable to tell him how you're feeling, though, and I am a bit concerned that he became so angry about it. That's a different topic but you do need to be a team on this. It sounds like you have collaborated to some extent - you've agreed to try the sleep training method even though you're not happy with it, but (you/he/together) have found a sleep consultant who doesn't use leave-them-crying techniques, and he's the one doing the bulk of the work and it sounds like doing it to the instructions incorporating another method of settling etc, not just being half hearted and leaving her to it. That's all positive and sounds like a collaborative approach and I think you did EXACTLY the right thing in supporting him with it by staying away even though you had reservations. He needed space to try out his method and you gave it to him.

The anger on you expressing your feelings about it/general difficulty discussing emotionally charged topics with him does sound as though it needs to change, though. Is it possible that he just felt exhausted from having done all of the emotional work of getting your DD to sleep and it just wasn't the right time to bring up your feelings about it? Would it work better if you discuss it during the day instead? Perhaps he was feeling defensive that she was crying during his comforting of her? Or is this part of a larger pattern as you hinted at? I do think that you need to be able to discuss and feed back to one another about how different approaches are going and to be sympathetic when a change in routine is difficult especially for the one who didn't want to make a change, without perceiving it as a personal attack or a manipulative attempt on your part to get him to change tack. It does need to be open to discussion.

I think in the current situation it sounds like changes are happening so it's worth persevering a little longer, but agree a timescale at which you'll reassess. Perhaps after day 5.

I honestly don't think it's worth trying to work out the benefits/harms of sleep training vs not - realistically a behaviour change at bedtime is difficult and likely to involve crying when you're pushing it forward from when it would naturally occur - like ANY behaviour change, which you would not stop simply because a child cried even if you found this difficult to cope with. Add to that it's happening at a time a child is tired as well and they will cry about it - it's a natural and okay response, if difficult to listen to. OTOH of course it doesn't harm them not to be sleep trained, this is absolutely a subjective issue which means that it is not a debate to be won with facts or persuasion but simply a discussion to be had between nobody else except you and your DH - you've given him the respect and space to try out his method, and he needs to give you the respect and space to express your opinion on it without feeling attacked or that you're telling him he has to stop. You ought to then both be able to agree on a route forwards and a plan of action and it's okay whichever way you decide to go, but you should both be happy with/accepting of the proposed solution even if it's not what you'd do in an ideal world.

Hope that makes sense - good luck.

Rtmhwales · 15/08/2018 23:53

She’s his DD too.. why do posters on here seem to think only mum gets a say in how she learns to fall asleep? If it’s causing him stress as well, they should discuss it together and try to reach something that makes them both happy. He’s got a point about constantly having to run up and soothe her if he feels it’s impacting on their marriage. OP said he’s sleeping in the spare room already so maybe he sees this would improve the marriage?

Fannyfanakerpants · 16/08/2018 08:17

Tahirtyrock39, you seem to be confusing the meaning of beneficial and not harmful. There is no evidence that anyone has shown to say it's beneficial to a baby to be sleep trained? On the parents life, maybe, but unfortunately parenting isn't a 7-7 job and as a HCP isn't it your job to tell new parents that this is normal. I remember so many new mums feeling like failures because their babies weren't sleeping and their HCP had told them they should be. It makes parents feel like following natural instincts is wrong.
And forgetting all of the research and evidence, and just thinking about it logically, why would it be a benefit to any mammal, to let a baby fend for themselves for 12hours a day?

harrietm87 · 16/08/2018 08:59

Really good post @BertieBotts!

BertieBotts · 16/08/2018 09:48

They aren't fending for themselves though, are they? They are in a cot in a bedroom in a house in a perfectly safe town. You haven't abandoned them to the wilderness.

It is perfectly fine not to sleep train, you don't need to make up ridiculous arguments to justify this. I do think it's a bit concerning if HCPs are being specifically taught that it's beneficial/important to sleep train though. It should be a family's individual decision based on what is working (or not) for them.

CoteDAzur · 16/08/2018 09:59

I'm with your DH. She will cry a bit for a few nights while her dad puts her to sleep but then it will be blissful sleep for everyone in the family, including her precious self.

A bit of crying is not the end of the world. It's a baby's way of saying she wants something, nothing more, nothing less. You have not kicked her out of the house and left her in the woods. Her other parent is right there with her.

TittyGolightly · 16/08/2018 10:29

A bit of crying is not the end of the world. It's a baby's way of saying she wants something, nothing more, nothing less.

How do you know it’s a want and not a need that she can’t vocalise in any other way?

EekThreek · 16/08/2018 10:49

Parking all of the sleep training is good/bad for a moment, a sleep problem is only a problem if you think it's a problem.

Trouble comes when one of you think it's a problem and the other one doesn't - whichever way round that is! If it was the other way round and you were on your knees from exhaustion, but your DH said "I'm happy with the way things are, DD's needs are met without her crying", there would be uproar that he wasn't supporting you.

You need to be together on this. Whatever his reasons for being at his wits ends (maybe because he's a selfish arse, or maybe because he loves you and wants to support you and maybe even spend some time relaxing with you every day and share a bed again) , the two of you need to find a compromise. Don't try and make each other the enemy, just because you disagree doesn't mean either of you are wrong. You just need to find the middle ground.

I say this after having a good sleeper, a terrible sleeper, and now a 6mo who used to be a good sleeper but has got terrible. My mental health was through the floor with #2, because of the lack of sleep. I didn't know it at the time though, and my marriage almost didn't survive. It's still rocky now, and I can feel my mh sliding because I'm up every hour. If your DH is like this, then I would say you need to support him.

I agree with PP, that he isn't advocating shutting her away until she cries herself to sleep. He was with her and doing his best. I know it's hard to hear her cry if you're not used to it, but he is not a bad person for wanting to find another way.

littlestrawby · 16/08/2018 11:20

It seems I have prompted quite a debate!! Thank you all for your comments.

For those concerned, I absolutely understand that it is normal for a baby at 8 months to wake regularly and need help getting back to sleep. I am 100% continuing to respond to my baby in the night, with the knowledge that this will slow down 'progress' in my sleep consultant's eyes but that I am allowing my daughter to develop her night sleeping habits in her own time. I said this to DH this morning as well, that i was not willing to cut DD off from night feeds all of a sudden and that I would like to just focus on bedtime at the moment. He seemed fine with that (if he was even listening to me Grin).

The only thing we are changing at the moment is her bedtime/go to sleep routine. I think she is crying mainly from tiredness and last night, it wasn't constant crying. She kept dropping off then waking up upset and crying again, then dropping off again...DH was with her comforting her the whole time, they were on the floor on a pile of cushions cosied in together so it wasn't even that she was crying in her cot wanting to be picked up. She had her best evening sleep that she's had in a long time at the end of it - 3 hours before calling for me!

Bertiebotts thank you in particular for your very thoughtful and measured response. You sound very wise!! I think that, unfortunately, up to this point DH has felt quite pushed out and while he has been keen to help with DD, he's ended up completely excluded while I BF/hold her/cosleep. So a lot of frustration has built up for him and I do think I owe him the opportunity to explore this new method, providing it doesn't create prolonged distress for DD. I am keeping everything crossed that tonight she is calmer at bedtime.
In terms of the wider issue of DH speaking aggressively/not discussing things in a healthy way, that is unfortunately one of his usual behaviours when something is difficult between us. His fight or flight response kicks in and he will often lash out (verbally) and then shut down and not want to discuss how to make things better. I'm very much used to it and take his strops with a pinch of salt! We do need to work on our communication together but that is something we will have to address at a later point once the dust has settled.

Eekthreek, sorry to hear you struggled so much with your second child and that things have gotten difficult again with your current little one. You're right that although our baby's needs must come first (as DH also accepts), this shouldn't be to the exclusion of everyone else and if my DH feels that a change needs to be made then I can't dismiss that out of hand. Our relationship is suffering and whilst I know thats normal and I know we can make up for lost time when DD is older, it doesn't mean I should completely neglect DH until that later point. I really hope things settle down for you again soon and you have some good nights sleep in the very near future!

OP posts:
arbrighton · 16/08/2018 12:31

I'm not wading into the sleep training thing AT ALL but will preface what I'm going to say with : I have not sleep trained, I won't ever sleep train.

At 8 mo, it had to be me feeding to sleep and loads of wake ups.

Same at 10 mo

At 12 mo: Didn't always go to sleep on boob, sometimes cuddles with me. Sometimes a night wake would be a quick cuddle and down.

DS is now almost 14 mo. He often doesn't feed to sleep (and actually pointed to his cot one night this week). He will cuddle and drift off with me after his BF (and accepts when I say it has finished) or DH comes in and sings to him in cot (won't allow cuddles).

He's waking a fair bit with teething and just getting to walking and a cold but we often get a 4 hour first stint so we have our evenings back and BF at night is SO quick now, I'm usually back in bed within 10 min.

I'm off out somewhere tonight (only ten minutes up road) so we'll see how that goes

You don't have to sleep train if you don't want to. It does get better. And husbands/ fathers often really don't get the feeling when you can hear baby cry but aren't going to them, even if someone else is with them

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