Help my ill Mum is claiming she "can't live her life knowing that I've hired a professional nanny "instead of using her - what would you do?

[Wills]

The history behind this as always is long and complex so I'll try to keep it as brief as possible.
Basically my dm has always had a very tight hold over me emotionally and normally gets me to do whatever she wishes. She has mastered the art of emotional blackmail! Recently (in the last year) she has started seeing a counsellor about the fact that she was seriously physically (not sexually) abused by her mother as a child. At the same time I am finally pulling away from her which of course she objects to.
My dm adores my children because a) she is a grandmother and b) because in many ways she is a
child herself. In the last 4.5 years since dd1 was born there have been many instances where she and I have rowed over how I raise my kids. If I stand firm she will instantly go down the emotional blackmail route such as calling me a bad mother. I have just finished my maternity leave (the best year of my life) and returned to work last Monday . Dh and I found a wonderful nanny share with another family just like us. My dds have been going to the nanny on a gradually increasing basis over the last 3 months. Sometimes the nanny would spend the time with me and sometimes without. My dds are very happy with her and my dd1 (4.5 years) is incredibly happy with the other two children (both around her age). My mother used to look after dd1 until I went on maternity leave with dd2. I was not happy with her care. She loves dd1 almost as much as I do, but due to her illness (she has pallendromic arthritus) she was unable to take dd1 anywhere (clubs, other children) and when they did go anywhere (shopping) would often loose dd1 (aged between 2 and 3.5) until dd1 decided to come back. She had no control over dd1 and simply resorted to bribery - then complained to me that I wasn't disciplining my child properly when she misbehaved. (There is no way my mother could even drop dd1 off to school in September as she couldn't even walk her to her classroom.) I know my mum adores my kids and I know my kids adore her so I have asked that my Nanny take the kids around to her at least twice a week and I will endeavour to take them at least once over the weekend.

Given all this background how the heck would you react to a phone call where she was crying her eyes out down the phone saying that her life just wasn't worth anything without the kids and that she wanted to see them a minimum of 3 days a week (without the nanny) or "there was absolutely no point to her life and she couldn't go on like this". I did challenge the suicide aspect of her conversation and I think she was shocked that I had done so. She simply told me not to be stupid. Even so - I hope I've given enough information about her that its obvious that I'm not necessary dealing with a rational adult mind. More like a child. What if she really did do something stupid?

HElP - please - I've only been at work 3 full days and am struggling with that as well

Oh Wills, poor you. No experience but fwiw I wouldn't give in to these silly and inappropriate demands. You wouldn't if they were made by a child would you, as it would be teaching them that bad behaviour gets them what they want. But I know this is different and much more difficult. Much sympathy, I remember reading threads about your mother before, this must be hard.

Probably it would help to wean her from the children slowly, robably another extra visit during the week but with the nanny and with a specified time, later you can reduce the amount of time spent with granny once they start having other activities. I think you are right, she will be difficult for a time but she wil be OK a the end. Hope your return to work is going well, everybody will be fine soon.

could you ask her to ask her therapist for advice on this? Surely they will agree with you that it's inappropriate. just a thought.

Oh, how absolutely horrible!
But you know that she is manoevering and manipulating in what she is trying to do here - and you know that you simply need to stay calm and rational and stick to your (very sensible) point of view and decision. Tell her calmly that the children love her, and she will still see them often as their grandmother, but that childcare while you work is a different committment. If she is behaving like a child, treat her as you would a tantrumming child, calm, firm, refusing to be swayed by her antics. She will doubtless try something else when she realises this tack is not working - hey ho.

I am sure this is all much easier said than done - it sounds as if you are doing REALLY well in drawing back the boundaries to a healthier relationship (for you). She's using this opportunity of the childcare issue as a reaction to that move of yours.

Fingers crossed for you. It must be very stressful.

Thanks everyone. Chandra. I have been weaning her. I've cut down my visits to her gradually from everyday to once or twice a week so in many ways the nanny going twice and me once is actually an increase. At the moment she doesn't feel that she can out rank me and so probably hasn't noticed that she wasn't seeing them so often. However now that I'm back at work she feels that she should be the most important person in my children's lives (and yes she does think she out ranks their dad my dh!). Its complicated and when you're part of it its incredibly difficult to understand what is going on. However I think (current theory) that emotionally she is still a child ( a difficult thought to have about your mum). I also think that she is very needy of love. Young children give out love in copious amounts especially if you buy them loads of presents (My mother will buy virtually anything my 4.5 year asks for and see no harm in this - as dd1 is only 4.5 there haven't yet been many things that she could ask for that my mother couldn't buy - only 1 - a horse ). I think that my mum's desire to see my children is more to do with her needing to feel loved. Blu - I think you're right about treating her like a child. i.e. standing firm, staying calm and not being swayed AND in staying calm still showing her love. However I repeat this is only the start, I know that as I stand firm it will get worse and I'm a little scared. I'm used to obeying my mother. When my mother is angry I find her extremely scarey.

Wills, your mother sounds very like various members of may family and is reminiscent of my father. In my experience, extreme emotional blackmailers are so self-obsessed that they would never actually do anything to harm themselves - I don't think your mother would ever kill herself or harm herself in any meaningful way. And tbh, although it is very difficult, you have to let go of any feelings of responsibility for her when she strays into those areas - ie when she makes stupid threats you have to think "well, it is her life and her destiny is in her hands, there is nothing I can do about it".
In addition, those sort of incredibly emotionally manipulative people have a lot in common with bullies - they do not like being challenged, it reduces their power. I find that if you stop tiptoeing about them, and challenge some of their manipulation, they generally either capitulate, or produce a reaction along the lines of "oh, no, you misunderstand me, that isn't what I meant" (although this is often couched as "you DELIBERATELY misunderstand me, how could you think that is what I meant" . And that pretty much is how your mother reacted to your challenge about her suicide threat.

It is bloody exhausting playing these sorts of games all the time - especially with someone you love and despite all logic, feel responsible for, I know. But my advise is to - stay firm, do what you think is best for your children, challenge overtly unreasonable behaviour, and ensure you get what you want by stating what you want and pretend to "not notice" and certainly don't react to lesser, needling behaviour and suggestions. Sort of sail through a lot of the crap with a very thick skin, deliberate obtuseness and a jolly-hockey-sticks singlemindedness.

Does any of that make sense or help? I do feel for you. xx

omigd pph and wills, so much of what you describe is reminiscent of my mother who is still very much a child in many ways. i have found the only way to be is gentle but extremely firm and absolutley unshakeable in terms of sticking to boundaries. i don't think you should change what you intended to do wills, if you do, it will never be enough until she has them in her house the whole time imo! it is like has been said, like dealing with a toddler. the worst possible thing to do is give in, but at the same time you want to avoid confrontation as much as possible by being airy and light about things. i really feel for you dealing with this and going back to work at the same time...poor you...

i agree with pph that she won't do something stupid, she just wants her way, and will do whatever to get it, until she learns that on this she cannot. maybe you could gently suggest that she takes her feeling of depair over not seeing your children often enough to her counsellor, that's what they are there for...

My MIL is a lot like this and DH and FIL give in to her all the time. Guess what, it gives her all the power and makes it even worse. Brother in law completely ignores her dramatics and she doesn't bother him with it anymore.

Stand your ground. The nanny sounds like the best person to fulfil the childcare role for your children. If your mum couldn't manage to control one child, how would she cope with two when your second is running around too? Also, do you want your children to end up feeling completely dominated by your mother like you do? If she becomes their main caregiver while you are at work, that's what will happen over the years.

Really feel for you. Families can be such hard work.

message withdrawn

Wills,
I think you've hit the nail on the head by saying your mother is like a child punishing you for 'abandoning' HER by going back to work. My grandmother used to do things like this to my mother over care of me and my brother. It was always scary for us - even when we were very young we could see the effect it had on our mother (exhausted, depressed, exasperated at being made to feel guilty all the time). What helped us was that Mum always tried to explain, in very simple terms, that Grandma had been very unhappy when she was little and that what we were, for her, was a second chance to have a normal family life. It wasn't something we were doing to her, even if she said it was. She was furious because her physical problems stopped her doing what she thought were 'normal' grandmother duties. Is walking the kids to school such a big deal, after all? She was trying to be loving but because she'd had such a bad time herself, it always came out as rage mixed with self-pity. It's such a shame that people have terrible times and then relive them when they become grandparents - all the memories come back, and the feelings of 'it's not fair'. Good on her for getting counselling, and good on you for keeping the kids well out of it - and for sticking to your own right to have a say in what is best.
Good luck.

i keep seeing this and thinking, 'ooohhhh, what can i say'and not know ing so i go away again./ But I can't keep doing that. just want to say that it sounds horrid and I wish you weren't in this situation. sorry i'm useless but did just want to say something rather than nothing!

Thanks for listening. I suspect this will go on but your support is really helping me - thanks

To all - I know I need to stand firm and treat her like a child but doing it is proving difficult. All my parenting skills are going out of the window when it comes to my mother. She's written me two emails today. The second - the one I've come home to is not good. Basically she's telling me that I'm killing her because her health can't take the upset and stress.

So I'm going to stay firm and she wants me to email her back but I don't know what to say. I want to explain in a rational way what I'm doing and why but I suspect she wont listen or worse she'll use parts of whatever I say to attack me back. Should I say nothing? Arrhhh

OH poor you sounds hideous.
Tell her there is no stress, the children will be well looked after by nanny, socialised and safe and they will still see her 3 times a week, maybe humour her and turn it round saying It will give you more time to do the things you enjoy, and it will make the times you do see the grandchildren that bit more special?
You really dont need this with going back to work etc, you KNOW your doing the best thing for them and now you just need to convince her of that. Good Luck

Wills, email her back. Say "Oh for goodness sake, mother, I know I'm not killing you through stress and upset, and so do you, so stop being so melodramatic. I have told you what I have decided to do in relation to childcare, and that is the end of the matter. Give me a ring if and when you are prepared to have a sensible conversation with me. Lots of love, Wills."

She needs a bit of a wake up call, honestly. Try it!

ps I wouldn't do any of the humouring that charliecat suggests (no offence charliecat) because that will just end up in a massive circular semi-slanging match/emotional blackmail session and no-one needs that. You need to say "you are being silly, I am in control, let's move on please" in a very matronly way. I think, anyway.

pph - after reading your comments I'd better "tear up" the email I'd just been constructing.

This was it:

Oh Mum I'm so very sorry that you are so upset and that this is causing you so much pain. I hear what you are saying and I understand that you are upset despite my attempts to discuss this with you. I am extremely sorry that my attempts to explain my rationale behind my decision has led you to feel "rubbished" and "humiliated" that was not my intention at all. Quite the opposite, I had hoped to show you how much I love you and care for you. In this I have obviously failed and I am very sorry. Nevertheless I am still confident that the decision that I have taken over my children's care is the right one. I had hoped to provide for my kids a replacement for myself whilst I was at work, care for their needs and love. In their Nanny I had hoped I would find someone that would have the drive and energy to provide for their needs and in you I hoped to find someone who would love them. I had hoped that a balance would be found that would make everyone happy, my kids especially. I thought that all that had gone wrong this week was communication, nothing else, but you seem to suggest more. I interpret from your mail below that you have not given this a chance. Given that we're only 4 days into the first week and that you have been "howling" for the last few days I suspect you never intended to give it a chance. I am confident that the decision I have taken for my children is right, it is about my children not about you, but I am sorry that it has caused you so much pain.
I love you

Go for it pph

Wills - this is so difficult and i clearly don't know your mum - it seems like she's very caring, but perhaps not the best person to look after your children at the moment, as you say, for various reasons. I get on very well with my mother, who was offering to help a lot with practical things (I am divorced), while I was busy trying to cope on my own. In the end we had a conversation when she said she felt old and of no value to anyone which put a lot of things into context (this wasn't put in a blackmailing sort of way, but was sad). Which is a long way of saying, I wonder if there are other things she might be able to do which would be helpful to you, and perhaps more appropriate. I can't think what (fill the freezer if you're a working mum - I know i would appreciate that!!)

just a thought

I see your point gettingthere however my mum wouldn't be prepared to do other things. I have tried this approach before and was basically told that she was not my maid and that she had far more important things to do. Made me feel really small .

Wills,

be very,very careful how much you involve your wonderful nanny in this. If she's having to put up with your mum and her melodramatics - will she walk? She sounds like one in a million!

It's great she's going to counselling, but my opinion (FWIW) is that you need to be firm with her. She's not being rational; like PPH says, you need to take a stand - for you and the kids.

Your priority is your family - your mum has professional help and your support; I think it's too much for you to be expected to give any more.

Good luck, I really feel for you.
H xx

Good point highlander. So far we've not told her a thing, but I think she's just starting to suspect. Outwardly to the world my mum can come across as wonderful.

Wills, have taken the extreme liberty of re drafting your email a la PPH-ish, discard it if you want!

Dear Mum, I'm sorry that you are upset despite my attempts to discuss this with you. I am also sorry that my attempts to explain my rationale behind my decision have led you to feel "rubbished" and "humiliated" since that was not my intention at all - quite the opposite, I had hoped to show you how much I love you and care for you. Nevertheless, I am confident that the decision that I have taken over my children's care is the right one and I don't want to discuss it with you further but I love you and will speak to you soon. Love wills.

wills, sweetheart, why are you saying that you have failed her and are sorry? I think your email is a good thing inasmuch as it is good for you to write down how you feel, but I don't think it is a good thing to send to your mum. to be completely blunt, people who use emotional blackmail do so to provoke strong reactions in others, whether good or bad, because that is what feeds them. you are playing straight into her needs, and giving her further ammunition and justification to KEEP doing what she is doing. Honestly, I really really think you should suprise her by NOT giving her what she is craving, namely an emotional, self-flagellating response, and go for a breezy "sorry you feel that way, I've explained what I'm doing, I'm not changing my mind, there isn't much more I can say that I haven't already said, lets move on please and agree to differ on this point.". That will NOT be the response she is looking for and you may well be surprised by her reaction. After all there isn't much point in creating a scene if no-one reacts. And of course she may create a worse scene or two before she stops (and changes tack probably!) but if you maintain consistency it WILL improve. And more importantly you MUST start feeling better about yourself. What have you done after all? Made an obvious childcare decision on behalf of your children. Perhaps you should start thinking "why the HELL should this be such an issue in the first place" and get a bit angry with her (in your head).

Honestly, Wills, you are a wonderful person but you are letting your mother undermine your self-esteem dreadfully and you shouldn't let her do it. Easier said than done I know. I do feel for you. xxx

WWW, I think that is v good. except I'd remove the "I'd hoped to show you...." sentence as she will leap on it and say "but you HAVEN'T! You've RUINED my life!". Without that it still says that she loves her, but brooks no discussion. I'd go for that, WIlls!

How are you feeling?

yes, you're right pph. Wills are you OK?

Yes I'm ok so far.

How about this
Mum,

I'm sorry that you are upset despite my attempts to discuss this with you. I am also sorry that my attempts to explain my rationale behind my decision have led you to feel "rubbished" and "humiliated" since that was not my intention at all - quite the opposite. Also I have no desire to stop you seeing your grandchildren. You have not given the setup any time to work and are being melodramatic about the whole situation. Nevertheless, I am confident that the decision that I have taken over my children's care is currently the right one and I don't want to discuss it further.

I love you absolutely tonnes.