I’m getting this parenting thing all wrong, please advise.

[BatteredBreadedOrSouthernFried]

I’m doing the discipline thing all wrong and it’s back firing. I don’t know what is right to do?

DS (8) has always had a temper and behavioural issues right from he started primary school. He has been assessed and ruled out for ADHD and by educational psychologist in school who doesn’t think there is anything like autism or anything else going on. At home he is generally very good, he knows the rules and the consequences and I usually don’t have any problems with him.

But this weekend has been a disaster. He isnt allowed the tablet in bed. It is his weakness, he will try and sneak the tablet to bed all the time. If he does he gets grounded for 1 week which includes no screens. I went to check on him on Friday night before I went to bed and he had the tablet hidden under his pillow so I removed it and said he was grounded for a week. He sulked but that was it. The next day he was spending a lot of time on the toilet and I got suspicious so when he came out I checked and he had hidden the tablet under the laundry in the basket. I told him he was grounded for an extra week for taking it when he was banned from it. Whilst I was putting laundry away he smeared soap around the toilet in my en suite, bent a kitchen spoon and poured a bottle of coke I had bought out onto the patio. When I discovered this I told him go get his money (my mum gives him a couple of £ when she sees him) and took him to the shop so he could replace the coke. In the shop he lifted two packets of sweets and set them on the counter. I said he wasn’t getting any sweets. He yelled that it was his money. I replied that he wasn’t having sweets. He yelled “fuck you!” And ran out of the shop. We live near the shop so I knew he would run home. I got in the car and followed him alongside the pavement to the house and he went straight to his room when we got in. He stayed there the whole evening except to come down and get himself cereal.

Today he was mostly ok except that DS1’s phone went missing from his room. This is also something DS2 does often so I asked him to get the phone. He denied he had it but then later it magically appeared back in DS1’s room. DS2 was walking past me in the hall and I started to say that the phone was back in the room and to thank him for returning it but as soon as he heard “phone” he stormed past me saying “I don’t need to listen to this” and went into his room and started throwing things around. It went on for ages but I didn’t go in because I think he does it for a reaction so I ignored. Eventually I heard a smash and went up and he has smashed the pot that the toothbrushes are kept in on the bathroom sink. I called him and told him to get it cleared up which he did and then went to his room. I tried to follow him but his room is absolutely destroyed. He has tipped over shelves, smashed his mirror and god knows what else as I couldn’t even get it. I just came back downstairs. He followed me a few minutes later and I said he could stay in his room until he had put it all back the way it was. He replied “so never, then” and stormed off slamming the kitchen door a couple of times so I knew he was angry. I didn’t react. I have also discovered he has pulled the end off the internet cable as he stormed upstairs.

So, what the hell do I do? Getting angry and yelling doesn’t work with him, he just goes into defence mode and lashes out even more. Do I just wait until he comes to me and then what do I do? Am I right making him tidy his room? It’s really bad. But he wrecked it by himself so he should tidy it by himself? I think I should get him to replace the things he has broken from his own money like the internet cable and his mirror?

Please help. I’m getting this badly wrong.

There are a few things I picked up from this post.

Firstly he is 8 temptation for tablet is too manage...Find something else that works.. I wouldn't even have tablets in rooms. If you don't change this Tablets downstairs at bedtime or at least somewhere you would see it been sneaked back.

For a DC who has discovered his dad who doesn't see him has another child is huge..He may say he is happy for a child who appears to struggle to manage his emotions there may well be a lot going on under the surface.

The money side of things..At 8 there seems to be a lot of losing money. ...If taking his money doesn't work don't take it off him..Give him a chance to earn the money back.

I am a LP and a child with ADHD and the one thing I would say also is the punishments you talk about never seem to be when things have calmed. If he is at the top of managing his anger then he isn't going to take it well.

Examples of how I deal with things differently..My DS scribbles on his bed..Tells me provoking a response. I ignored it...Next evening cloths and cleaning products and he cleaned pen off.

Trashed his room..Left to it as you did..When it came to the point of tidying he wanted me to help. I didn't but I did sit with him and help his organise how he did it. I said move the big stuff first so you can see a difference. It was too overwhelming to know where to start.

The smirk is bloody infuriating. However one thing my DS's teacher said is his I am in trouble face is a smile or giggle rather than the other I am in trouble look from the other children.

Things have also helped we did mindfulness for kids on you tube.. We did it together., He has been given a feeling book though he hasn't wrote in it.Worry dolls, anything of getting his feeling out.

I think you're focusing too much on punishments and not enough on what he is trying to communicate with this behaviour.

You say he has been assessed by an educational psychologist for ADHD and ASD. Educational psychologist are not qualified to rule out ASD. I don't know about ADHD but I suspect the same applies.

I have two DDs with high functioning ASD, Asperger's Syndrome, and the behaviour you are describing sounds very familiar to me.

I would take him to the GP and ask for a referral to CAMHS or a paediatrician for a neurodevelopmental assessment.

In the meantime, think of your DS as being emotionally younger than his age. He may be unable to understand his own emotions or the root of them and find it difficult to explain how he is feeling verbally.

He might have been smirking because he was genuinely unable to control his facial expressions and may not even know what would be an appropriate one for that situation.

He sounds confused, overwhelmed and very angry with the world. He needs you to be on his side, helping him to understand his own emotions and find more appropriate ways to express them. Meltdowns where an 8 year old trashes his room like that are likely to be the result of a lack of control and my DD2 always felt devastated and angry with herself when she did it at that age. She now uses a punchbag instead.

If he has ASD, tidying his whole room may feel impossible. Google executive function to help you understand why long complex tasks like this could be a problem. My DDs are both highly intelligent but could not cope with tasks like this at that age.

If he can't understand or describe his emotions, it would be very hard to be asked to talk about them. Maybe that is why the play therapy isn't working. Try labelling his and your own emotions for him, e.g. I can see you are feeling upset because you can't have any sweets. It must be disappointing. I feel sad about it too.

Lots of children with neurodevelopmental disorders like ADHD and ASD rely heavily on the down-time they get from using screens. They are socially undemanding, predictable and easy to control. When the world feels scary and erratic, they offer a very attractive respite. Try not to use removing this support as a punishment. When my DD1 was really struggling, CAMHS told me to make sure she was still able to do things she enjoyed - horses was her thing - because it was a rest from feeling rubbish about herself.

When children are struggling like this, sanctions are often ineffective and counter-productive. They erode the child's self-esteem further and create more of the negative emotions they struggle to manage.

Try to spend time with him building his self-esteem. Let him know when he does things you appreciate, join in the activities he enjoys and try to communicate that you are there to listen and help. Shoulder to shoulder is better than face to face so sitting next to each other in the car or doing a jigsaw together can help with communication. Don't talk about what you don't like about what he does. Ask him what he thinks about things and what he finds hard.

OP could it be that he needs your help to calm him down when he’s angry? He maybe hasn’t learnt the skill of calming himself down yet? Also It might be better to let him calm down first and reconcile (a calm talk and then a cuddle or something positive) before punishing. If u punish while he’s still angry he will only get more angry I think. Also, I agree that the grounding for a week is too harsh. Maybe no tablet for an afternoon would be enough? Or earlier bedtime the next day. The other punishments seemed fine.

At the moment you need to de-escalate the whole thing. Could you let him pick something nice that he wants to do with you and tell him that you’ll do it together after you’ve both cleared his room up?

Thank you everyone, I am taking all this on board.

Wrt ADHD/ASD he was referred through the GP for both assessments. He was seen by a community paediatrician who referred him on for a QB test but she felt he didn’t present as having ASD so that referral went no further. The QB year said he had higher than normal levels of activity for a boy his age but not high enough to be diagnosed with ADHD. He is seen by a behavioural therapist monthly, the play therapist weekly, his social worker monthly (for over a year now) and the SENCO and educational psychologist in school (who has observed him 3 times) I was insistent on having the ASD assessment done privately despite the referral not being sent on by the community paediatrician but all the above professionals agree he doesn’t present as having ASD. Quite honestly they all look baffled when I have discussed it. The ed psych made her assessment and report a few weeks ago and it was based on that I decided not to go ahead with the private assessment (as it is £1300 and they all think I would be wasting my money)

My situation was not as hard as yours,but when my son and I got angry with each other, I would wait till we were both calmed down and then talk about it. If I wasn't completely calm, another tow woukd start.

Don't hate me, but it makes me smile to think of an 8 year old hiding his tablet under the pillow and smuggling it into the loo. This is because I am not deeply, emotionally involved like you are do am more objective.. I think you need to make him realise that you love him, involve him in working out what is reasonable for him to do, and don't minimise the effect of not having his dad in his life.

You have my respect for caring so much and trying so hard to get it right. It is a tough job being a good mum and I am sure you are a good mum but don't be too harsh on him or yourself.

A weeks grounding for sneaking the tablet is excessive. Then he's already in trouble for a week so what is there to lose.

And it just escalates from there.

I think he's desperate for your attention and approval today. Or if he can't get approval just attention will do.

It's so bloody tough isn't it op.

OP, that makes sense, although I would still keep it ticking over at the back of your mind.

High functioning children can mask ASD very effectively and are often not diagnosed on the first referrals. It might help you to read around the subject, especially about girls with Aspergers because they tend to mask, fly under the radar, exhaust themselves trying to fit in socially, manage sensory issues and organise themselves, then fall to pieces at home for no apparent reason.

In the meantime, try hard to look for reasons behind the behaviour, like exhaustion from socially busy situations, unexpected changes to routine, sensory overload, stress from trying to follow complex instructions. Also keep labelling emotions. Whether he has ASD or not, he is clearly struggling to process and manage emotions and he needs help to understand them and manage them more appropriately.

Try to manage behaviour without sanctions wherever possible and don't withdraw activities that help him feel calm and relaxed.

Good luck x

I don't think you're to blame at all, you just have a pre teen with attitude. The attitude can start at 5 or 6 and just carry on.

I honestly don't know what to suggest, he's been assessed, but his behaviour does sound destructive.

How good is your school for pastoral support? Maybe give them a call tomorrow, tell them what you've told us, that you feel like you're to blame. Hopefully they'll get digging and get to the bottom of whatever the problem is.

It sounds like testing boundaries with a little bit of jealousy for the other sibling. But the easy answer is DS1 doesn't wreak havoc so things are different for him.

Another thing to do would be to sit him down, you're probably going to get emotional, ask straight out what is the problem. You can't help him unless he talks to you. You are trying your hardest but feel lost, he needs to work with you so you can get this resolved.

Keep a chart at home with a diary, that way you have something to present to school if they still insist he's fine. I hope you get it sorted.

Thanks all for latest posts. I’ve been trying to put it all into practice but clearly getting it all wrong as today has been a disaster.

He told me yesterday he didn’t have his sheet that he had to copy for homework. I checked his folder and bag and it wasn’t there so said I would write a note to his teacher. Then at bedtime as he was literally about to go upstairs he pulled his homework sheet out of his coat pocket. I told him it was too late to do it now so would get up earlier in the morning to do it. He was fine with this. Got him up to do it this morning and he was doing it but dilydallying so when it came time where we had to leave for school he only had a small part of it done. I told him I would write a note for the teacher. He got hysteric crying saying the teacher would keep him in all week for not doing it. I know this isn’t true. She keeps them in to complete work they haven’t finished but that is usually only one lunch period, not all week! I told him she wouldn’t keep him in all week but he was having none of it. He ran upstairs and took his uniform off saying he wasn’t going to school. I got him down again and said to do it now and I would bring him in late and explain to the teacher but he refused and said she would still keep him in. I know she wouldn’t but he wouldn’t believe me and just refused to do it. So I said fine, but you know that not going to school and doing your homework means you can’t get your screen time today. (I have cleared the slate from the weekend and given him back screen time etc) he said fine. For a while he was ok but then he got bored and started acting up for a reaction, he had jenga blocks and started throwing them around the room, running around jumping on furniture, trying to turn the PlayStation. He tipped the dogs water bowl over and squirted cream on the floor and started rubbing it on the walls. He ripped up his school book and homework sheet. All the while saying things like “good luck cleaning that up” and when I was asking him to stop doing all this he was saying “why should I?” And swearing at me. I’m ashamed to say I broke down in tears and he saw me. I was asking him why he was doing it, why was he so angry and he was crying and saying he just wants his life the way he wants it. I was asking what he meant but he couldn’t answer other than to say “let me on the tablet” I told him if he helped tidy up his mess he could have his screen time back but he refused and went upstairs and started throwing things down the stairs. The social worker rang in the middle of all this and offered to come and speak to him but I knew he wouldn’t speak to her and suspect if she came he would try and run away from the house. Eventually he came back down stairs and I told him I was going to fold some laundry, he asked if he could have the tablet and I said if he tidied up the mess he made. I had already tidied most of it because the kitchen was a slippery mess and the dog was eating all the Jenga pieces. So he tidied what was left and I asked for a hug and an apology from him. He said sorry (with a smirk) I told him I love him and want him to be happy and that i know he isn’t happy when he is throwing things and wrecking things. He wouldn’t give me a hug which is fine but he is normally very affectionate. So I gave him 30 minutes on the tablet. He has been fine since then. His friend came over after school and they played outside.

I feel like I’ve been torn to pieces. It really was awful. This can’t keep happening. I’m guessing I went wrong somewhere with the homework situation? What should I have done differently? Should I have let him have screen time despite not going to school? Right now it feels like he got screen time for tidying up a mess he should never have made. So a reward for being naughty? Im so confused about what the rules are.

You changed your mind a bit which let him know there was wiggle room and gave him the idea he could manipulate you to get what he wants.

Initially you said you’d send him in with his homework half done and a note, then said you’d send him in late with it all done. Because you changed your mind he then knew he could manipulate you and your stance wasn’t firm. He was right, he ended up not having to go to school not having to do his homework and having his friend over.

You should have stuck to your guns and taken him in with his homework half done and a note, since that’s what you said you would do. Basically, anything you say you’re going to do, you need to actually do. You can’t change your mind.

With a new discipline system generally children are ok with it on day 1 but days 2 and 3 are rough as they test you and see if you’ll cave, then it settles down. Each time you back down tho (as you have done here) you’ll effectively be back to day 1 again.

I would echo what previous posters have said about trying to educate yourself on this subject, eg popular TV shows such as the 3 day nanny or super nanny are a great way to learn more.

You should have stuck to your guns and taken him in with his homework half done and a note, since that’s what you said you would do. Basically, anything you say you’re going to do, you need to actually do. You can’t change your mind.

Oh he wouldn’t have gone. there is no way I could have gotten him to school, that’s why I offered for him to do the homework and go in late. He was refusing to go and I can’t physically drag him so I thought if he could get it done and avoid the consequence of being kept in at lunch he would do it. But he wasn’t buying it at all.

I have to say, I used to watch super nanny years ago and didn’t like her methods, I watched one of her recent shows last night and I’m still not keen. I’ve seen a bit of 3 day nanny too. They both seem to be aimed at younger children (that you can lift) and not older children.

I imagine dragging an 8 year old is pretty difficult!

Wish I had some good advice.. heaps of praise when he shows good behaviour? it sounds really tough so just wanted to send you a big xx

Not a huge super nanny fan either.

I actually think you handled today really well. I'd try to talk to him when he is calm about why he gets angry and see if he can tell you better then. Maybe take him out of the house for a hot chocolate and try?

Yes I’m trying to create situations where I can give him lots of praise. Like asking him to set the Table or help me feed the cats. He has been totally normal (good) this evening. I’m thinking we sit down tonight and agree what is happening tomorrow morning. Like I will write him a note to the teacher, and no stressing about his missed homework or books. Or will that stress him out more?

I think given how things went, you managed really well, but it is taking its toll on you emotionally. Obviously, at 8, the advert ce my 15 yr old daughter gave me when I was struggling with handlng my 13 yr old son was that I had to let " his sh*t hit the fan " rather than trying to sort everything out. So, if when your son took out the homework sheet, you had not reacted, perhaps any repercussions would have happened at school.

Assuming he is going back to school tomorrow, how will you explain his absence? I agree with you that you could not have forced him today.

Hopefully you have a close relative or friend who you can talk to.

just read your post. i think i would not mention tomorrow but just leave it till the morning. Write a note and hand it in when you drop him off. I wouldn't talk to him about it as things might escalate again. If he mentions it i would just say he is going back to school. he might get in a state about the school knowing why he didn't attend. I think i might say well this time i will say you felt ill but next time i have to let them know the truth or i will get in trouble.

I really don't think the super nanny/ black and white approach sounds right here. I think it sounds like you are doing the right things- you won't win every battle, but you will win the war. He needs boundaries and consequences, but with a dose of love and understanding.
I think I would be upfront about tomorrow. It's the law that he goes to school- tell him that. It's not your choice. You will help him, support him, but he needs to go (so long as you are sure there is nothing bad going on there). Stick with your firm, fair approach. Continue being mindful of drawing lines under things that are done, and focus on finding ways forwards.

When I was struggling with my ds’s behaviour I was recommended the book - calmer, easier, happier parenting - whilst I found a lot of the advice hard to follow through some of it is excellent and I often will read back on some of the ideas when I am having a rough patch again. It is much more geared to older children and I found it more useful as they grew older.

What is he like at school OP? Any issues there? Are there any parenting courses locally you could attend? Not to say I think you are doing a bad job at all; but it could give you a few more ideas and help your confidence in handling behaviour. I think it is very easy to get stuck in rut in how we deal with things. It is for me anyhow.

I know ASD and ADHD have been ruled out but does he present with any sensory difficulties? It would fit in with the tablet use and hyperactivity.

Hope you find something that helps and that tomorrow is a better day for you both

He’s in bed now. He does a hobby on Tuesday nights so we’re back from that and he’s gone up to bed now. I had a good cry at my friends house while he was there.

I didn’t mention school tomorrow as I suspect he will have argued so I’m just going to do normal routine tomorrow morning and hope he doesn’t remember he has any objections.

I’ll be honest with the school about why he was off and about his ripped books. they are familiar with his issues, he reserves them mostly for school. This is his third school, he just moved in September but so far they’ve been fantastic. We were waiting 2 years in previous school for ed psych assessment. This school had it arranged in 6 weeks. The school link in with his social worker too so everyone is in the loop.

Thanks for the book recommendation lori

Wrt sensory issues, he really only complains about always being distracted by everyone making noise in school. I always kind of assumed it was his excuse for not getting in with his work. The ed psych said he is very hyper vigilant. Always paying more attention to what is going on around him. He struggles with keeping friends in school. He makes friends easily but takes offence very easily and falls out with them. Very low self esteem, always thinks people are talking about him or looking at him. Even his friend who was here today he accused of saying something about him. I was sitting right there and the friend had just mumbled something in his own made up language he sometimes uses. It really wasn’t anything about my son but he was convinced he heard his name being said.

I’m going to ask the social worker about some parenting classes for me. I really think I need something.

You're right about Supernanny. It is not an approach that would help at all.

Your DS sounds like he is highly anxious, struggling socially and with sensory input and unable to manage his emotions. He must find school stressful and exhausting. You going to parenting classes isn't going to change that. Those courses help parents who need to learn to implement boundaries and that isn't the issue here at all.

I think you should try to find out what he is feeling when you describe him as smirking. It, quite reasonably, makes you cross but it may be just a sign of anxiety or not knowing what facial expression to use.

I'm glad you still took him to his hobby and you let him have the screen to help him calm down.

One thing to remember is that when a child has a meltdown it is a complete loss of control and the only way they can find to express their overwhelming emotions, it can take over 40 mins to recover to the point where they are properly calm. Before that point they are on a hair trigger and can be sent back off into full meltdown very easily.

Even his friend who was here today he accused of saying something about him. I was sitting right there and the friend had just mumbled something in his own made up language he sometimes uses. It really wasn’t anything about my son but he was convinced he heard his name being said.

This is really common in children with ASD. It happens with touch too so someone brushing against them gently can be interpreted as a punch or kick. It is not dishonesty or trying to cause trouble. They usually really believe it has happened that way.

It happens with touch too so someone brushing against them gently can be interpreted as a punch or kick.

This is actually a major problem in school! In the past he was always lashing out at others and every single time he would say they tripped him or pushed him or pushed past him. He is always convinced they did it on purpose. Sometimes the teacher will confirm that there was an accidental trip or nudge so he isn’t imagining it but he believes it to be deliberate. The educational psychologist witnessed him getting angry because a child pushed their chair out as he tried to walk behind them. He was convinced they did it to annoy him. He is much better at controlling his hands now but still reacts to perceived offences against him. Ed psych says he has a persecution complex. Is it possible all these professionals he sees are just missing these symptoms? Are they not well known?

One of my sons was like this at the same age...he had a lot of difficulties in his young life,and the frustration came out in his behaviour..we were being pushed in to having him diagnosed with ADHD..but my instincts said no,it was his environment..so we changed his school.within a month he was a changed child..he's 18 now,studying for 4 ALevels...amazing the difference in him..BUT I also completely backed off ,and made sure I didn't punish him for anything,I'd learnt the type of child he was ,punishment made everything a 100 times worse.we talked and he had a lot of freedom,funnily enough he never took it...always in by 10. Always did his homework...I just needed to be supportive,and the move of school helped massively...but when your stuck in the middle of it ,it's hard to see the wood for the trees x

Thanks feed so how did you deal with unacceptable behaviours? Things like swearing or hurting someone?