Should my ex be allowed to 'veto' my choice of babysitter?

[Tamz77]

This will prob be long and confused, but please bear with me; I have been feeling sick and sad about it all day.

Ex and I split up when I was pg - DS is now 3.5. We live in the same town - his home town, where I have no family and few friends - and try to be amicable to the extent of having coffee together and occasionally tea at each other's houses; have even planned a 'family' holiday together for this summer (quite a risk). However he does have his moments of being VERY verbally aggressive, nasty, patronising and paranoid. I cut off all but necessary contact at the beginning of last winter due to this emotional abuse (as I perceive it; he thinks I am just soft as sh*t) but renewed the above 'socialising' at the beginning of '07 as he seemed to have calmed down a bit and DS loves us hanging out as a threesome.

Cue this week's trouble: to keep it short, we have a nursery parents' evening (no kids) coming up and when I mentioned that I'd ask my neighbour to babysit, ex said an outright "No". It caught me offguard a bit - "Er...why?" She has been my friend for 9 months (and I've only lived in this flat for a yr) and my son knows her very well, sees her sometimes several times a week, and she understands him too which is important as he has speech problems. Ex says he doesn't know her and doesn't trust her and I am NOT to ask her to babysit. Even for one hour! He says we should only ask family, that I don't 'know' any of my friends (and then went on into one of his usual spiels...that I think everybody's wonderful (which I don't) which is to say I'm stupid, naive, and wouldn't know a psychopath if they bit me in the eye).

Does anyone think he has the right to do this? The more I think about it, the more I feel absolutely outraged and totally patronised. I don't have any family up here to babysit, and even if I did, I don't think being related makes someone the best person for the job (eg my mother is slightly mental and I wouldn't let her babysit if she was around unless an absolute emergency). Moreover, if it's a matter of 'knowing' someone, I don't 'know' most of ex's family except for having about two cups of tea with two or three of them over a period of 5 yrs, and as for suitability, ex's chosen family member (to babysit) is currently in hospital recovering from serious, deliberately self-inflicted burns (another story entirely).

I'd like to think we each have the power of veto, so to speak, if one or the other of us is seriously making a terrible decision regarding DS and his safety. But this situation seems to me SO controlling, akin to how ex used to always ask me where I was going, did I have 'company', etc, in a stern and offended voice (as if he had the right to be offended or to even ask), and the way he used to get pissed off if I didn't explain my movements to him. It basically means that, say, I want to do an evening class and arrange childminding, or to go back to work and do the same, I am not 'allowed'.

Incidentally his answer to the parents' evening was that he said he wouldn't go, that he will look after DS "since there is no-one else" and I'll go on my own. This is a once a year thing and our first one!

I have three good friends up here and would trust any of them with DS. He uses this as evidence I would hand DS over to any old stranger and that I am a "lax parent" (his words).

This has made me really sad especially since when I tried to explain why I was upset, I got a load of abuse. Every time ex and I are getting on in a civilised way for a while, he turns on me, or that's what it feels like.

Anyone experienced anything similar or have any opinions?

Sorry; meant to add that my perspective on this question is: sure, I don't know a lot of ex's friends, but if he said X Y or Z was OK to look after DS, that they were trustworthy, then I would trust his judgement. What most upsets me about this is that ex thinks I am incapable of this most basic and essential parenting question (which isn't really a question for him most of the time, as he is a single man who does what he likes 6 days a week, and will never have to arrange babysitting himself, ever. I have DS six days a week, 5 at the very least, and ex chooses which night he has him, according to his convenience, week by week; sometimes only giving me less than 24 hrs notice of when he wants him).

Sorry to rant I am not very eloquent though so cannot verbalise all this to ex, maybe he would understand if I wrote it down...

Sounds to me like you have parental responsibility as your dc lives with you. He's got no say in the matter.

My XP was very controlling too.

Haven't experienced anything similar, although I do sometimes worry about the effects of some of my ex's houseguests on the children (mainly keeping them up late type issues, nothing serious). To be honest, my feeling is that when the children are with him, it is his responsibility to arrange childcare if needed, and when they are with me it is my responsibility. I'm sure if either of us had serious doubts about someone then we could discuss it, but the choice would still rest with the parent who had responsibility at the time. I think that your ex is seriously out of line, and just trying to be controlling. I assume that your ds lives with you permanently? After all why should he know your friends, as it sounds as if you only keep in contact with him for your ds.I think you need to be careful with your ex's behaviour - your ds may like you all to be together as a family, but make sure the cost isn't too high for you.

just don't tell him. That would be the easy, nonconfrontational option.

personally, I would send him a carefully worded email, pointing out that as YOU have residency, YOU get to make childcare decisions for YOUR social life.

If you like, you could just use a registered childminder and bill him.

I think you need to cancel the holiday and move to another town.

This man will control you for years if you let him.

If you want to be technical, tell him that you will arrange your and ds's life as you wish and, if he has any problem with it, he will have to apply to the court for a prohibitive steps order - which he is absolutely unlikely to get.

Of course you can choose who you want to babysit your ds.

Is his name on the birth certificate?

oh babe well done for getting it off your chest. first of all (and sorry for shouting)

YOUARENOTA"LAX"PARENT .

you have your boy's best interests at heart - how can that make you a lax parent? from your post (and if i was in your shoes) i wouldn't trust ds with his recommendations either - even if they are family. my own dp wants his family to look after our dd and bless them but they are rather mature in years. grandad looked after dd when we went xmas shopping - we phoned up to see how things were going and he was letting her play with a proper fountain pen. enough said.

i think it may help you to cool things down for a while and go to this parents evening on your own. now i know that isn't what you wanted originally but would you be able to relax and concentrate wondering if he would tkae offence at something the teacher says?

as you are the main carer for your ds, i would suggest that it is you who has the final say in who gets to look after him, by all means take ex views into consideration but trust your judgement when you make your decision. (((((((((hugs)))))))

Thanks all for your replies it's very calming!

Yes DS lives with me, ex's name is not on birth certificate; almost went to a solicitor last year to put something formal and agreeable in place but chickened out for fear ex would do something vengeful eg fight for custody. Also I wanted to keep things friendly! Suggested mediation/counselling but ex refused.

Caligula - hmm I think I know that, I almost did move but chickened out of that too. Thing is I love the city I am in and want it to be my home. Would break my heart to leave

Hi Tamzz77

Well done for not putting his name on the birth certificat this means he has not rights over your dc at all!

Nothing whatsoever!

I never put my xp's name on either so know first hand.

Whatever you do dont put anything in writing you may regret it, he can file for custody or shared parental responsibility.

I know it sounds bad but if he's really horrible and you're scared he's going to take your dc away you can always add someone else's name on the certificate who you can trust or a future partner/husband. He wont have a leg to stand on. He doesn't sound nice, my xp was very controlling, it ruins your life, you are constantly seeking approval.

Don't get anything agreed on paper. He cannot seek paternity either unless he's really rich as legal aid is not valid in these circumstances & as you have full parental responsibility you can just say NO!

By all means if you are happy with him having contact as it is then keep it that way but don't agree to anything on paper. Its all legaly binding & by you confirming he's the father he will automatically be given rights by you.

Sorry for the long post, I ran away from my xp who decided he would seek custody, his name was not on the BC either, seen alot of solicitors

Wow...thanks Hillary I don't know much about it all myself. The trouble with not having anything in writing is that this emotionally damaging situation just goes on, apparently in perpetuity. Also, even if I don't go down the legal route myself, he could always do it himself?

How far did you have to run from your xp Hillary and did he try to track you down?

Hi there,

No he cant start legal proceedings, its nothing to do with him, you can just deniy he's the father.

I moved over 100 miles away & he's still looking for me, he would snatch my dd's & kill me (not a nice man, but started off just like yours)

Jesus. You must be sh*t scared then, all the time...am I right?

Not sure I could live like that, think I'd rather marry the guy. Not being flippant, but it's scary...my ex was married before and I have witnessed his vitriol towards her once she met someone else...

Yes but I changed our names by deed poll and put another name on the birth certificates too, I don't go 'home' anymore.

I have worked in law for many years so have inside information.

Dont let him push you around, stand your ground - says the person who did a runner

No he can't, and you can tell him so. He could go to court over it, but the judge would just give him a bollocking for wasting his/her time.
You have a perfect right to make this sort of day to day decision without interference. I certainly don't think you should be going on holiday with this bloke.
And in future, just don't tell him anything about your arrangements for ds.

There are mechanisms for him to acquire parental responsibility. Denying he is the father probably wouldn't work. You have been treating him as your ds's dad and your ds thinks he's his dad. There are such things as DNA tests too.

If he applied for PR, he would undoubtedly get it, unless there were very strong reasons why he shouldn't (such as no contact at all since birth, violence towards the mother, etc.).

Whether he would go down this route is another matter, but don't relax thinking it isn't open to him.

Your ex sounds very controlling and tbh I think the only mistake you are making is allowing your son contact. My friends ex partner was just as you describe your ex, including wanting to spend time together like a couple with kids, he belittled her, resented any friendships she had and was generally bullying and controlling. He now verbally attacks her regarding friends,her new partner, her work, her babysitter, her childminder, etc. He has also trashed her home (which she completely decorated when she bought him out) and got into bed wih his son drunk and with blood all over his hands.

The point I'm getting to is her son who is also 3.5 has completely picked up on his father's behaviour - he cannot control his temper, hits out at his mother and sister, is domineering with girls, etc. (Even though father has never actually hit out at his family). Her daughter behaves as my friend did in the relationsip and is quiet and subserviant with her brother and friends at school.
I also think spending time together with the kids is confusing for them.

Please don't be sad, you are not a bad mother. (((hugs)))

Do what you can to change things, if you can't face cutting him out completely ensure his only contact is ds related and you minimise your time with him. I wouldn't go on holiday with him. When your ds is full time at nursery do something to boost your confidence ie job or college but you are right he will hate it, make you feel guilty, etc. This is because he wants to control you - don't let him. As for the parent's evening, tell him its cancelled and go on your own leaving ds with your friend. You need to put yourself and your ds first. xx

Half of me wants DS to have a proper relationship with his dad and half of me thinks it's the worst idea possible - my DS too has those temper troubles and hits me; ex has never been violent towards me I hasten to add but he does have a violent past and is v misogynistic. Actually I am v embarrassed that I have a child with such a poisonous and ignorant character but at the same time, I don't think I could ever delberately lie in order to keep ex out of the picture.

I've heard these 2 opposing views from people before...1) that he's my son and ex has no rights, and 2) that ex has the same rights as me, essentially, he only has to pop along and get a bit of paper off a judge, and then he could do whatever he likes with DS.

Am now considering emigrating...it would be the second time ex has driven me out of the city I love...first time being when I was pg and he dumped me...I had to sell my house and move back into my old bedroom at my mums...

Thanks for all advice it is much appreciated xx

Even if he were to get parental responsibility, it doesn't really give him any more rights that he has at the moment. He can insist on being consulted on major decisions, but you, as the main carer, have the final say on what happens so basically he can say what he likes but you do what you like.

Hmmm...thanks Freckle but I have just been reading up on the legalities of it, online, and if he had PR and I object to any particular notion of his, he can just apply to the courts for an order forcing me to go along with him. Eg if he wants to take DS to Egypt for 2 wks and I object, he could ask the courts to make me agree. What could I say? "I'm scared he won't bring him back" which would be true, but what could I provide as evidence of my fears? What if the judge disregarded me and told me I had to let my son go off for a lovely holiday with his dad?

I can see how parental responsibility could be used bitter exes like mine to be deliberately obstructive and to cause stress and unhappiness, just for the sake of it.

Getting scary...

The point is that, if he were to apply for PR, he would undoubtedly get it, unless there were very strong reasons why he shouldn't.

I don't think you should kow-tow to his orders regarding babysitters, etc., because you think he might apply for it as that's just surrendering your own wishes to his without even a token fight.

Applying to the court for a prohibited steps order or similar is quite a serious matter and also quite costly. I would doubt that he would do this every time you made a decision with which he disagreed.

A new law came out about 3 years ago where if you did not put the fathers name on the birth certificate then you the mother would be granted sole parental responsibility, the father has no rights whatsoever unless agreed by you, he cannot gain parental responsibility unless you grant it only access which yes would be granted unless very strong reasons like mental/physical or any other abuse.

Before this law was passed the fathers name need not have been on the birth certificat he would still have equall rights as the mother.

I did not put my babies dad on their certificates, he did not know this and tried telling me what I was 'allowed' to do, he was also mentaly and physically abusive. I sought advice from solicitors who gave me this info.

Failure to add the father's name to the birth certificate means that he does not have automatic PR. He can however apply to the courts for it if the mother won't agree and, unless there are very extreme circumstances, it will be granted. Plus the courts will want to know why the mother wouldn't agree.

The agressive behaviour is enough for you to not allow your dc contact with your xp, not saying you dont want your ds not to have contact but it is enough.

You are not married, he left you when you were pregnant and you have never lived as a family. If you had been living together etc then it would be persceived(sp?) that he was the dad & any judge would presume him to be the dad.

I have been through this myself and can tell you it wont happen.

There's no evidence to say he's the father, ok he may think so and others too but you can deniy it. Anyone can persume so. He's your child nobody can make you have a DNA test unless you agree to it. Even if he took you to court it would cost him thousands & legal aid is not granted for family issues.

Anyone can apply for access even grandparents, he could do this no problem.

You are within your rights to take your ds abroad or anywhere without asking xp but if he takes your ds he will be charged with abduction. My xp was a very violent man so I made sure I examined every avenue possible.

Tamz it's nothing to do with him who you have as a babysitter. He is your little boy's Dad and is entitled to be concerned about him, but this sounds OTT to me and I think you've hit the nail on the head when you say "I'd like to think we each have the power of veto, so to speak, if one or the other of us is seriously making a terrible decision regarding DS and his safety". If you were leaving your son without a babysitter, or maybe with someone really young, I could understand him being concerned, but other than that he should butt out. If you want to get a babysitter so you can go to an evening class - or even a night on the town - go ahead.

I have to say though, dh's x didn't put him on dsd's birth certificate. It didn't make a jot of difference. He was still able to go to court and get a contact order (he had to because his x wasn't letting him see dsd), and he also applied and was granted parental responsibility. But don't be scared by that because in reality it hasn't meant he has been able to interfere in any decisions dsd's mum makes on a day to day basis. He is supposed to be involved in things like choosing which religion she follows and which school she attends, but his x goes ahead without even asking him. For him it's been helpful because he is able to get school reports and invites to parents evenings direct and when he's needed to he's been able to speak to dsd's doctor and dentist and if dsd were with us and needed medical treatment dh would be able to sign for it.

It's also possible, to be a litigant in person and go to Court without a solicitor or barrister, which is what dh did. I'm not saying that to scare you, just let you know my experience of things.