How much should we carry our babies?

[Joe]

I have just come across this discussion and still find it hard to understand how we can carry your babies around for 9 months but when they are born we are expected to put them to one side when ever possible. I have always carried my son around either in my arms or sling and still do (anybody got any recommendations for back packs). He has slept with us from birth (at first sleeping on my chest at night and most of the day) and eventually in our bed. He has developed into a happy, content and confident little chap. At 9 months he is just starting to go into his own cot (a decision I made led by his behaviour) and is happy to sleep in there during the day and most of the night. I have loved the closeness we have shared. He is growing up and I am determined to enjoy every moment.

To add my two pennyworth to all this - in Edinburgh now, breech births are now only done by Caesarian. There are no doctors left who would now how to deliver a breach baby, though this is commonly done in the Western Isles so I've heard. Though as I've posted on other boards, I suspect this may have something to do with it being a large teaching hospital and they want to have plenty of women to practise on......(Am I getting too cynical?)

My mum had me naturally breech, apparently the sole reason that I'm an only child. Her sister had a breech baby die at 39 weeks after the doctor tried to turn the baby. When my baby was also breech I elected to have a CS, but did not have any of the problems described here. I was fine, and outof hospital in 3 days. I'll definitely have another elective one, even if I have to pay. I cannot bear the thought of an emergency cs. Does anyone think a tendency to breech may be hereditary? Given that the official statistic of breech is 3% I seem to know an awful lot of people that this has happened to.

Paula1, I was told that transverse lie (completely horizontal in the womb and VERY uncomfortable) is hereditary. My mother had an elective C section in the sixties for me for the same problem. Only difference is that she has a very disfiguring scar from navel to pubic bone. It looks as though I was cut out with pinking shears. So it could well be that breech can be hereditary also - to do with the shape of the womb, possibly? (Can any midwives/drs out there provide more concrete info?)

Take heart, Bloss - I had an unplanned C-section with my first baby (after a long labour and an epidural) and like you, thought I'd really try to avoid an epidural the next time. Didn't manage it, but pushed her out really nicely just the same. Third baby was in a different position, much easier and less painful, and I had her without any pain relief or other interference whatever.

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Going back to an earlier posting on costs, The Times Good Birth Guide gave costs for c-sections and 'normal' deliveries. It quoted £2,500 for a c-section and between £850 and £1,350 for a 'normal' delivery depending on how assisted it was.

Yeah well, Bloss, it was pretty funny how quickly my determination to avoid another epidural went out the window! But as I said, it turned out fine anyway.

I've just come across this thread and wanted to go back to the original starting point - the Continuum Concept and whether it helps instill security/ confidence. My twins were 10 weeks premmie and in an incubator for six weeks during which time they were poked around, had blood taken almost everyday, tubes regularly inserted etc and put on a 2, 3 and eventually 4 hour feeding routine (my expressed breast milk plus formula powder to fatten them up). The hospital encouraged us have skin to skin contact with them often (a few times a day) which is a relatively new concept (it's called kangaroo care and seemed completely natural and obvious to me but apparently it's revolutionary). When they came home (still only about 4lbs each in weight) I continued to breastfeed for six months, they slept in a cot together from the first night and thank god were teriffic sleepers, probably because they'd "been trained" from an early age by the hospital and because (imo) they took dummies (sorry Lizzer). We were acutely aware that they needed lots of love/attention - I stayed at home for a year and got loads of help from husband, four willing grandparents, even a maternity nurse at first to ensure they got lots of one on one time for their first few years. They are now three and absolutely gorgeous, funny, clever, sweet etc but (and here's my point at last) they are v v shy and nervous of new people, experiences, sounds etc. When we go to a friend's party they are likely to spend most of it on my lap. There is absolutely no chance that I could leave them in a creche on holiday, or with someone they didn't know very well for any length of time at all. They have just started nursery and are finding it quite an ordeal to be left etc etc. All this, of course, may be coincidence and have nothing to do with their start in the world but I can't imagine two children being more loved/ having a more secure environment and they are certainly the most clingy three year olds of any I know. Nothing, of course, we can do about it except give them more love, understanding, attention etc but it is difficult not to think you're failing as a parent when your children are lacking in confidence. I have a hunch however, that it may be a by-product of their early weeks/ months.
One other thing. It's not really possible to follow the continuum concept with multiples -imagine trying to carry them both, have two (or more)in the bed with you etc. And breastfeeding two is no walk in the park either. Does anyone know whether twins and multiples are generally shyer/ less confident - it would be a good indication that there's something in theory?

Robbie, I'm amazed that no-one has come back to you on this. I don't really have anything much to say myself as the mother of one 2 and a bit year old.
It sounds like you have done an amazing job, particularly in those stressful early days when your little ones were in the hospital.
Maybe your children are just naturally shy. They do say that it can be an inherited characteristic. Were you or your dh shy as children? If they are coping with nursery then that must be a good sign, as nurseries are quite noisy, bustly places.
I'm sorry I don't know anything about the continuum concept but hopefully someone else will!

Robbie, I can see what you're getting at - if there is any truth in the continuum concept, then twins will tend to be less confident because they will naturally have been carried less by their physically challenged mothers in their first few months of life.

I can only speak from my own experience: two sons, not twins, not permanently carried in a sling as newborns, not sleeping all night in our bed:

Both were/are very sociable and confident as babies and as toddlers. So for us, the continuum concept, as I understand it, most certainly does not apply.

Robbie, I found your theory interesting. Instinctively, I would think that what has happened to your twins in the last 3 years would be far more formative in their development than what happened during the first 6 weeks, despite how traumatic they were, just because of the relative time spans.

I don?t know of any evidence of my theory, or yours, but apparently there is quite a bit of research in to premature twins. For example, there is a paper which has shown that a majority of mothers develop a preference for one of their premature twins within the first couple of weeks. The preferred twin shows fewer behaviour problems and a higher IQ at age 4. Another paper shows that compared with premature singletons, mothers of premature twins tend to respond less to their babies, initiate less interaction, show them less affection etc. More relevantly, this behaviour is predictive of the children?s cognitive development. Neither of these papers is applicable to your situation, except perhaps in demonstrating that the maternal actions subsequent to the premature and presumably traumatic birth have definite implications for the child?s development.

So, given that you?ve ?done everything right? and your twins are generally happy and healthy as a result, where does that leave you and their lack of confidence? I?m sure it must have occurred to you that it could be because they?ve had so much love and attention that they find it hard to be left? Maybe they just need time to get used to it?

Dear roobie,

I don't think you should worry about your parenting skills, sounds like you're doing a terrific job.
I don't believe in any of these theories, be it the continuum concept or Gina Ford's rigid routine. I believe each baby is an individual who is born with a well defined charachter determined genetically.
The only theory that applies to every baby is giving them love, love and more love, and be sensitive to their individual needs. For some babies this will mean being carried around all day ( as I had to do with my dd for the first 2-3 months), for others it may mean being left in their cot/baby chair.
(incidentally my baby since she was 3 months only sleeps if she is alone in her cot in the dark, and identifies our bed with play time!!!)
As long as we try to listen to our baby's needs every parenting style works, and will give our babies enough confidence. (but there will always be babies who are shy, or more sociable or whatever, this is just Genetics).

Robbie I can also vouch for the fact that you don't need to carry your child around with you to give them confidence. My son has slept on his own right from the word go, and he only ever spent two nights in our room when he was a newborn. So he's always been in his own cot, in his own room. I also never carried him around with me (in a sling), mainly because I'd never heard much about the concept. So he spent much of his awake time usually in a rocker or lying in a play gym, or propped up on pillows, etc etc. He is now 18 months, smiles at anyone he meets, is very sociable and he has no fear. In other words, if you put him down he will take off and want to explore wherever he is. This can be difficult on the other end of the scale! At least you know your children are going to stick with you - we have to keep an eye on my little boy whenever we go out because he is always on the move. So don't worry, it sounds like you've been doing the best you can.

Am I the only one horrified by the idea of carrying a baby round all day in a sling, purely from the point of view of becoming exhausted carrying all that extra ( and ever increasing) weight about?
Perhaps I am just much older and more decrepit than the rest of you,or maybe my babies are bigger, but there is no way I would have the energy to lug around a baby, particularly with a two year old and a one year old continually asking for their share of cuddles!
On an American parenting site ( see other thread) someone recently asked about their child who was going through a naughty phase and the advice given was he needed more love and to carry him around in a sling....this child was FOUR!!!

robbie, I feel its a shame that you feel you're considered to be failing as a parent because your children are shy. I've just read this whole thread and kept thinking that perhaps the opposite is true - that these super-confident, social youngsters are like this because they have to be - they had to learn very early to engage with people other than their parents, to deal with a change of carers every few hours etc. I think "shy" is a negative term for natural caution, and it doesn't follow that they will have social difficulties in later life.

Just for the record, my son either slept with us or one of us went into his bed for four years, he still comes in with us and he is calm, never hit the terrible twos. I am convinced that extreme aggression and other disturbances come from Toddler Taming and other practices.

I couldn't carry him all the time because he was massive and my arms were v weak from a very nauseous pregnancy. I spent a lot of time lying down feeding him at first and he was rarely not in contact with someone.

Also, what's wrong with carrying a four year old?

I'm off to find someone to argue with about Gina Ford.

Absolutely nothing wrong with carrying a four year old around all day in a sling( which was what was being suggested)...if you're ten times stronger than I am and have no other responsibilities.
My point was I physically could not do it, that's all.Not even with a small baby.

Thanks everyone for your supportive comments. Actually I've just read the expert question about shyness on today's home page and it's quite reassuring to think that some kids are genetically shyer that others (which is what Jan Parker says in her answer). Guess we all just have to work with what we've got and do the best we can, oh and not worry too much (which is the hard bit).

Louisa, I think you've made a very good point about some children gaining early confidence becuase they have to.

As you say, the continuum concept can be completely turned on it's head: Babies who are cuddled and handled by a variety of people could tend become less clingy later on.

I have to admit that with both my sons, I actively encouraged other people to hold and cuddle them, as soon as we left the maternity hospital, because I wanted them to get used to loving contact from other people. I knew I had to return to work, so at some point in their future I would cease being there for them all the time. As small babies, they were happy to be held and fed by others, and their childminders and babysitters have fequently commented on their ability to settle in quickly and their fearlessness around new people. Obviously I can't say that their early treatment definitely led to their ease amongst strangers - looking at their father and his abilty to find someone interesting to talk to wherever he goes, it could well be genetic!

Of course, I wouldn't disagree with the view that much early confidence springs from having the full attention of a loving primary carer.

RE Toddler Taming: Louisa, you seem to have some definite views on this, but I'm not sure what they are. Can you elaborate on this - perhaps start another discussion? I remember someone else casting aspersions on Toddler Taming, but I'm still in the dark.

Do you mean Christopher Green's Toddler Taming? I have read it just the once, so it is not my bible. I remember mildly disagreeing with some of his suggestions, but on the whole I found it a useful book.

I suspect a lot of shyness and confidence comes from inate character. Of my four children, two are shy and retiring (one DS, one DD) while the other two (also one DS and one DD) talk the hind legs off any passing donkey, yet they've all been raised in the same way, I think.

My wife is expecting our first baby at the end of November. We have been given a new cot baby bumper,but have heard that they are unsafe ??
Are the bumpers SAFE or NOT.
If safe, from what age can that be used ??

Can any body help please...

Hi Oldtimer - are you new to Mumsnet? Can't remember seeing your name around before - if so, welcome. I think the official advice is that cot bumpers should not be used until 1 yr of age, as also quilts and pillows should not be used until this age.

I think the theory is that the baby could get his/her face buried in the bumper and not be able to breath. Also the reduce air circulation in the cot which might possibly be a factor towards cot death. I know it seems impossible that a tiny baby could move to the edge of the cot but my DS used to turn 180 degrees in his cot from 2 weeks of age so believe me they can get about.

Re: the cot bumper thing, I thought I read somewhere that you shouldnt have them in cots when the child was able to stand/climb as they could use it as a 'step' to get out? Not saying its correct but I used a cot bumper from 4 months - 14 months. Apart from looking nice I assumed they were to stop draughts around babies heads? and if yours is anything like my ds he bangs his head when fidgeting at least 9 times a night! didnt use quilt/pillow until recently and hes two now.

Oldtimer - I have a friend in Germany who was using one on a 4 month old when I visited and when I expressed surprise she said there was no such advice over there. There are many of these 'must/mustn't dos that we have which are totally different in other cultures (and ones such as Germany and the US which are not particularly different cultures to our own in general terms) - so whilst I'd never say ignore safety advice - much of it is perhaps not the 'be and end all' we make it out to be.

I must confess I put "bumpers" (nicely recovered old duvets) in my babies cots from around 10 months old -- to stop baby from thumping head against the bars and waking up early. Are mine really the only active sleepers out there??? Both of my babes were crawling up stairs & walking by 10 months, which is why I didn't rate the getting stuck risk very much. DS is 3yo, in a bed, and still has a bumper duvet to snuggle up to.

Yes zebra we had this problem from a few weeks of age. I put rolled up cellular blankets around DS because he would end up with his legs/arms dangling out of the cot. Not sure that this is an improvement on a bumper in safety terms but I was new to being a mother and listened to the health visitor!