How much should we carry our babies?

[Joe]

I have just come across this discussion and still find it hard to understand how we can carry your babies around for 9 months but when they are born we are expected to put them to one side when ever possible. I have always carried my son around either in my arms or sling and still do (anybody got any recommendations for back packs). He has slept with us from birth (at first sleeping on my chest at night and most of the day) and eventually in our bed. He has developed into a happy, content and confident little chap. At 9 months he is just starting to go into his own cot (a decision I made led by his behaviour) and is happy to sleep in there during the day and most of the night. I have loved the closeness we have shared. He is growing up and I am determined to enjoy every moment.

But this debate didn't start with any claims that breastfeeding produced "perfect" babies or anything, just an idle observation of a benefit (which could of course be co-incidental) applying to a child who happened to have been breastfed for an extended period of time. As has already been said, surely there's nothing wrong in commenting on a potential benefit of something that a parent does for its child?. I find it so sad that mothers (and it is usually mothers) so often seem to interpret such a comment as a negative view on their own methods of feeding / sleeping etc etc.

Surely all those who go in for extended breastfeeding and co-sleeping and so on want is to able to do so without facing the constant stream of criticism which so often seems to be the case. Not to say of course that there's anything wrong with bottle feeding and sleeping in a cot of course!.

That is it, I am going to bloody scream, I have a new keyboard on the computer and it hates me, so here goes for the thrid time this morning. I bottle fed both my kids, daughter slept through the night from 3 weeks old, and then son came along, oh what a shock to the system that was. Our kitchen now resembles Fort Knox and he can do a Houdini past any cupboard lock.

I used to carry mine about in a sling or a back pack and it was great, they could see everything that was going on even when I was lambing a ewe!, that was when I was working outside and other times they sat in their chair in the kitchen or wherever I was. I liked the sling and the back pack as I could get out and about and still help outside. Once when I was milking with DH, I can remember eldest grabbing a hold of the cord for the milking machines and she was pulling them off as quick as I was putting them on and thought this was great fun! and she used to grab hold of the cows tails as well, you could see the cows looking round and thinking "most uncivilised".

Oh blimey Tigger, I've just had a nightmare with my keyboard too. I wrote a great long piece and then it all disappeared!! (Perhaps lucky for you lot!).

The gist of what I was going to say before it disappeared was that I agree with Kmg. We should go with the flow, but when we have no experiences to fall back on we look to others for assurance that we are doing it 'right'.

Until these debates I never gave much thought to how I parent my child could affect him as he grows up. All I see is a happy, beautiful kid who fills my life with joy. Some attitudes can make you feel tense and stressed. The b/f arguement will rage forever and I particularly feel sorry for women that desparately want to b/f but can't and may then feel very stressed.

Lizzer, I don't see that bonding has anything to do with how you feed you baby. I loved our night time (bottle) feeds and never felt so close to our child when it was quiet and dark and just the two of us and he would stare into my eyes like there was some telepathic link between us.

Centuries ago women would farm their children off to wet nurses so surely that was just a form a nourishment rather than bonding.

After watching 'Child of our Time' last night there is so much down to nature that we can't change even if we wanted to. I think we have to be lead by what our babies want and there will be some that enjoy the closeness and some that won't and I've picked up from a number of conversations that many of you do what you do because you child's behaviour has lead the way.

Dammit - missed child of our time, was it good?
Thanks for answering my question Emmam, I wasn't sure if you got all those lovely looks and snuggles in the middle of the night with a bottle.
Kmg, I'm with you on your point about making people feel there is a right or wrong way, that was my point when I said that people shouldn't be judged as somehow 'bad' if there children aren't sleeping throught the night in their own beds - even by age 4. I don't know if I'm just v susceptable (sp?) to criticism but I found myself getting wound up a lot at the baby clinic hearing these competative mums go on, but then found myself getting caught up in the inadequate feelings they were producing...

I agree with going with the flow and going with what your child requires to grow and develope mentally and physically, they are all different as we are. Like I have said before I am interested in how other people do things as there maybe something you could try, but I do my thing and dont really listen to anybody else. I have always carried my son, sometimes doing lots with one hand but he is now changing and quite happy to be left playing, but he gives me the signals and thats what I follow.

As we're discussing going with the flow and being led by your child's responses, has anyone here felt that their baby sometimes wants to be put down and left alone for a little?

I remember when mine were babies, sometimes after a big cuddling session or after lots of carrying, they used to eagerly crane their bodies towards the cot when I laid them in it, and looked very happy to be left alone. If I then left the bedroom, they didn't drop off to sleep but I could hear them happily gurgling. It seemed to me that they needed time away to 'day dream'. Sometimes a nap would follow, but not for say 20 minutes or longer. Other times they would begin to cry, again after a long gap and I would go back for them.

I definitely felt that cuddling could at times be too stimulating and 'un-relax' my sons. Anyone else experinced this?

Only recently has my son shown signs of becoming more independent. He was becoming very restless in our bed so I have moved is cot in and now he sleeps in that most of the night. He used to always want a cuddle when sleeping and going off to sleep, now when he is nearly there he sometimes becomes restless and settles when put in his cot. Dont think he is quite ready for going to sleep on his own but he'll let me know when he is. I think it sometimes has something to do with our body heat, my husband and son are hot bods and ds very rarely settles with dh in this hot stuffy weather.

Tigermoth, yeah it was a big shock when she did start to want time on her own and it was around the 10 month mark, I recall. She suddenly liked being put in her cot to go to sleep on her own and I heard her making sounds and 'chattering' to herself before finally settling. It was strange as everyone had always said how the last bed-time feed would probably be the last to go, but in her case it was the v early morning 5am one. I remember everyone in my family saying how strange it was and that she was the 1st child in the family ever to do this (my Grandma still comments on it to this day!) but it did help to start a bedtime routine that is working really well now at 18 months (she's still in with me every morning though, not that I'm complaining!) Actually, just had a blinding thought from out of the blue, as most of you probably know I'm a single parent, and I have a lovely double bed just perfect for one and a half - how do you lot manage with 2.5 in - gah!

On a different note, did anyone have babies who from a very early age (ie days old) prefer to be held facing away from your body so they could see everything going on. My dd would not have it if she was carried head on shoulder, which makes me think she was either extremely nosy or thought I smelled bad or something!!
As to the comment about how you get things done with baby constantly attached - you just manage, and as a plus point my arms are the most toned and slender they've ever been in my life!

Oh, and Bloss as I've said before on another thread I think it is very admirable that you carried on with feeding for so long given all the problems you encountered and I have my fingers crosssed for you that baby No.2 is a different kettle of fish entirely - you never know your luck, and you must let us know, ok?!

Message withdrawn

~Lizzer - I too have toned arms from carrying my son around and making a cup of tea with on hand (and typing this) has become second nature. With 2.5 in the bed - you dont move. Now with my son in his cot I can now snuggle my hubby.
Got to go Bear in the Big Blue House has just started,

And as we all know, everything stops for Bear in the Big Blue House...! I love him more than my daughter does, he's just the cutest thing ever

I suppose I always tried (and still try) to give my son some time to himself. I wonder what he is thinking if I'm never more than a couple of steps away, is it 'for God's sake mum clear off'! Sometimes if he's grotty I'll put him up in his bedroom and when I check on him later he's got his toys and books out and seems very happy to have his own 'me' time. I love to see him the garden playing with his lorries and sand chatting away to himself and occasionally if he catches me watching him he will go all shy. When we are at the park I try not to follow him around too much and let him find his own way around on the equipment - obviously I'm there as quick as a flash if he looks like he's in trouble - but I think he needs to explore what he can and can't do for himself. Often he frightens me to death with his fearlessness, but he seems in control and I don't want to knock his self-confidence by always being there to help. I wonder if I would be different if he was a girl. Would I let him be so devil-may-care?

He always checks back - he's so sweet, he'll come up and pat you head and ask if you are alright and then off he'll go again. The hugs and kisses are so special when he deems to give them and so I know he still loves his mum. I suppose I am encouraging his independence but I want him to be able to work out situations for himself and be confident that he can do things rather than me be there to sort them out - because in future I won't be able to.

So much really depends on the child and the parent. I would have classed my child as a 'clingy' baby but he is quite an independent toddler. I don't know to what extent this is nature or nuture, but I don't need to question his love and need for me because I know he does.

Emmam, I couldn't have put it better.Your description of allowing indpendence in toddlers mirrors my own experience so closely. One slight difference, my older son was not the shy sort, ever, so ventures into the big wide world were accompanied by demands that I watch and applaud him being a big brave little person - but not interfere.

Emmam - I have to take issue with your comment ...

"Centuries ago women would farm their children off to wet nurses so surely that was just a form a nourishment rather than bonding."

This doesn't make sense. For a start a wet nurse was used when a mother couldn't feed her own child - often a relative helped out although they wouldn't refer to them as a wet nurse. Wet nurses were generally used by aristocracy for the specific purpose of the mother producing many children. Large families were considered desirable and they carried on the family line. The mother didn't breastfeed because of lactational amenorrhea (absence of menstrual periods as a result of breastfeeding) and hence was able to reproduce again almost immediately. Also some rich people didn't bother with their children much anyway and for them breastfeeding was seen as a bind.

It is well researched that if a baby is put to the breast immediately after birth it helps in the bonding process. This bonding continues throughout the whole breastfeeding period. Your body produces the hormone oxytocin which has a calming effect on the mother.

Non breastfeeding mothers bond also of course by cuddling their babies. Breastfeeding just makes it easier because you can both comfort and feed at the same time.

I didnt know about the relaxing hormone released while feeding (I knew that if you breastfed you were able to fall into a deep sleep straight away - maybe same hormone). This will probably explain why I am so laid back that I am walking around almost horizontal and getting walked over by work. Does it affect your memory too or does having a baby do this, I think I have donated part of my brain to my son, I have never had to write lists or reminders. Wouldnt have it any other way though.

Also Emmam - to go back to your earlier post. If you think your son is a normal 2 year old then why are you getting so cross?

No-one here has claimed their child is perfect. As for me yes my son gets cross but he has never bitten. I do think he is happier than some of his peers and to be totally honest I think it is related to breastfeeding. However I think it is perfectly possible to bring up a happy child without it. I have a friend who has never breastfed but she does cradle her son in her arms (with dummy in mouth) to soothe him and it looks very much like the act of breastfeeding. I think it is plainly wierd that some people find it so odd that a child would need and enjoy something so basic and natural as being breastfed. We enjoy eating don't we? No-one ever questions that? It seems to me patently obvious that a child would enjoy being breastfed and that it would make him/her happy.

I believe in a general philosophy of parenting style called attachment parenting which includes breastfeeding, co-sleeping, and discipling in a certain way. I don't have time here to discuss it but there is plenty of stuff on the Internet. Also Emmam you talk of a 'normal' 2 year old. I actually think that many people including children are not very happy at all (I am not referring to your child specifically here of course). But to me modern life does bring us a better standard of living but it is not making us happier. My way of thinking is to go back to a more natural way of childrearing. Call me soppy if you like but I think it works.

I was merely quoting the research - children can become attached to material objects at a very young age and this is seen as being a bad thing as it promotes materialism and consumerism in later life and leads to problems in buildling relationships with people. More interaction with the mother (and it need not take the form of breastfeeding, but this helps) allows the child to develop better socially. Hence children are more confident and are less likely to have temper tantrums and become attached to material objects such as toys which can lead to conflict with other children (such as biting for example).

The Child of our Times programme didn't even mention breastfeeding which was a shame. However it did show that a strong attachment with the mother is very important. In our busy lives this is even more important and doing something like co-sleeping can use up those hours when you aren't doing anything else so you may as well cuddle your child.

There seems to be a lot of people out there that close their ears when talk of breastfeeding is mentioned. We are here to learn after all and each discussion should be viewed on the basis of the content and quality of the arguments proposed.

Eulalia - I agree with what you say. As I said when I re-opened this thread, I breastfeed, my son sleeps with us (not so much now) and I carry him around when he needs me. I shall look up attachment parenting with interest.

Eulalia - you've obviously got your views, I've got mine, there are things we agree on and things we don't. The important thing though is that we are bringing up our children to the best of our abilities on which they are thriving.

Your comments are always interesting and well-informed - where do you find your research?

Eulalia, Was v interested about the attachent parenting so looked it up (sorry folks haven't a clue how to do links, but just typed it into a search engine and loads came up.) It seems to me a very obvious style of parenting (if that's the right word) - what I mean is that it seems to be what I thought seemed 'right' from the start. I like the fact that it is led by the babies needs as I often wonder where our society gets these guidelines for child-rearing from? I have no doubts that this style of parenting feels 'normal' for myself and dd. The only thing I did not do was to leave weaning til around the 6 month mark (but that was influenced by the fact that every book says 4 months - why?) Surely this term 'attachment parenting' is just a back to basics approach that has been lost along the way in today's world?

Emmam, I completely agree with you saying that as along as a child is thriving there is nothing bad about a particular parenting style. But, I wonder if you would mind answering what you thought on the case that as mammals we are the only species that does not co-sleep with their babies and the only ones who drink other mammals milk (partly out of curiousity and also for me to try and get my head round different ideas - thanks!)

Eulalia- I was wondering why b/feeding wasn't mentioned on child of our time too?

Lizzer, there is an interesting attachment parenting guru in the States called Dr William Sears - some of the sites based around him are well worth a look, and his books seem to be widely admired by attachment parenters.

Can I ask a question? (This may be covered on the attachment parenting websites, if anyone knows this is so, please let me know).

Here it is: Can you practise extended breast feeding with two or more children?

What happens, say, if you have a 15 month toddler and a 2 and a half year old? If the older child is still having breast feeds, do they get jealous of the younger? What happens if you are using b/f to calm and reassure your children after a little crisis or tantrum? How would you choose which child to b/f first?

As far as I can see, all the people here who practise extended b/f have only one child. Is this a one-child thing, or has anyone done it with two or more?

Bearing in mind what has been discussed regarding wet nurses, could you physically manage to give extended b/f to more than one child anyway?

Oh yes, forgot to add. If you breast feed your first child, say, until they are 3 years, and stop because baby number two is coming along, is this likely to produce lots of angst and tantrums etc in the older child because they feel they are being cut off from their habitual source of comfort, and a usurper is taking their place?

Is there a case for stopping b/f before your child reaches the terrible twos, if you intend to have more children?

Blimey Lizzer - that all sounds a bit deep! The only book I read was Kate Figes Life After Birth and from what I can recall most of our changes in parenting happened during Victorian times. I couldn't tell you when bottle feeding was introduced and by whom. I presume centuries ago they must have had some source of feeding babies if the mother was unable to feed the baby herself. Did they use wet-nurses or did they invent some other system? Again, centuries ago people would co-sleep, I suppose at lot of it came down to space perhaps. I don't know. For me, we had periods of co-sleeping - you know the type, baby wakes up at 3 am, easiest way for everything to sleep until 7 am was together. But I personally always felt nervous about doing it. I was worried the baby would get squashed or smothered or be too hot. I often found myself getting uncomfortable and was quite relieved when I could have the bed to myself again.

My circumstances really have dictated so much of my parenting. I had no choice but to go back to work when my son was 11 weeks old. I needed to have a full time, regular salary. In the early months my hubby worked shifts so he did much of the parenting and my mum helped out. When he changed jobs we found a childminder. We work our hours so that we can have good quality time during the week with our child, but sometimes it usually means all the time we have is to come in cook dinner, bath time and then bed time. I see what Eulalia was saying about using sleeping to spend some time together. There are times I look at my child in his bed and wish I could wake him up just for a cuddle. I guess there is resentment that I can't spend as much with my child as I would like. My son is a happy boy, but then I ask myself could he be much happier if I had adopted a different parenting style? And then I feel cross for feeling this way, because I know in my heart of hearts that I am doing the best for my child even though it doesn't match others views of parenting.

I am a happy mum, I believe I have a happy child. I am happy with the choices I've made. There are things I wish could be different, but on the whole I have no regrets. I'll certainly have a further read about attachment parenting and see how it fits in with some of the things I'm doing.

Thanks Marina, just been to askdrsears.com and there is some really good info on there. I've been looking at the discipline stuff and it's great. I really need some focus at the moment on how to handle my 18 month old, she's a pretty typical live-wire at the moment and it was nice to see I wasn't doing everything wrong, and get a bit of help on how to handle certain situations that are cropping up quite frequently now. Expect it all on another thread very soon.....!

Emmam, just saw your post. Sorry for getting too deep - I guess I like the fact that you can really into conversations this way as I would never be so bold as to say things to people's faces! I am feeling bad now that I made you defend yourself so much I was not trying to beat you into submission, I promise, I am merely nosy I guess, I like to hear different stories... I think it's easy to get caught up in personal 'ideals' but so much of real life gets in the way, as you say. About the attachment parenting, it's well worth a look as a lot of it is pure common sense....! Thanks for answering me emmam, but if ever you think I'm just rattling on, just ignore me I'll probably go away!