How much should we carry our babies?

[Joe]

I have just come across this discussion and still find it hard to understand how we can carry your babies around for 9 months but when they are born we are expected to put them to one side when ever possible. I have always carried my son around either in my arms or sling and still do (anybody got any recommendations for back packs). He has slept with us from birth (at first sleeping on my chest at night and most of the day) and eventually in our bed. He has developed into a happy, content and confident little chap. At 9 months he is just starting to go into his own cot (a decision I made led by his behaviour) and is happy to sleep in there during the day and most of the night. I have loved the closeness we have shared. He is growing up and I am determined to enjoy every moment.

Batters, I agree with you. If people want to have an elective caesarian and bottle feed then they should be able to. As long as they have the chance to make an informed choice then that should be all that matters.

Sorry I disagree. Caesarians are castly more expensive that natural births and given the cash strapped nature of the NHS at present and the horrendous delays for people waiting for life-saving operations, I can't see how elective surgery such as this can be carried out at the state's expense for no good medical reason.

Hi Eulalia - just seen your post. My views on b/f are purely personal. I'm not anti at all. If people want to b/f and b/f for a long time then good for them. I am very shy about my body and I did not feel comfortable at all about b/f. I guess at the back of my mind too was breasts and sex and breasts and baby. I can't explain it - having a baby latched to a nipple that also played a part in sex. Do you see what I am getting at? I also couldn't bear the thought of b/f in front of any one else. I think I can say in all honesty that it would have made me very very unhappy. I don't know what I would have done if it was the only option. Got on with it I suppose but in complete privacy and became a relative recluse in the process. It probably stems from not being on the very well endowed stakes and having a miserable teenage time being teased about my lack of natural assets.

But on the weird side - I loved being pregnant and wore close fitting clothes to show off my bump. I had a vaginal delivery and actually really enjoyed the experience. (But I kept my t-shirt on!). I can't understand why people opt for c-sections if there is no medical necessity. Someone I know had an elective c-section because she was scared of the pain and I really took issue with it. I did see some figures once about how much it cost to give birth and I can't remember where I saw them. I think it was around £300 for a vaginal delivery and about £700 for a c-section. In my personal opinion if you opt for an elective c-section (with no medical condition making it necessary) then I feel it should be paid for privately.

I'm sure I said this before but I don't think we can argue against women having caesarian's on the grounds of cost. If we are going down that route then we have to charge fat people, drinkers, smokers, hi-risk sports players etc higher NI contributions as they tend to have more health problems or accidents.

Given that a C-section usually involves a week in hospital, the involvement of a surgeon and often an anaesthatist and of course has greater risk of complications I would have thought the cost differential would be even greater than that. With IVF and so on now so rarely available on the NHS (and certainly to no-one over 35) and other vital operations so difficult to procure and generally involving an extended wait, I don't see that emotional well being can be a priority. If it was a consideration for the NHS, wouldn't that justify plastic surgery that was purely for cosmetic reasons?. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against C-Sections - just don't see that they should be paid for by the NHS unless there is a medical reason.

But Bugsy, all those people you refer to (i.e. fat people with heart disease, smokers with cancer, sporte people with accidents) have medical conditions which require treatement. Same isn't true for a purely elective C-section which has no medical benefit.

I would have thought that given the apalling state of maternity services in this country and the subsequent traumatic birth experiences of so many women as a result that elective c-sections should be well down the list of priorities.

As I understand it, the only cosmetic surgery which is available on the NHS (which isn't reconstructive or in relation to a deformity) is breast reduction and this is only in rare cases. Just did a bit of digging around, apparently a c-section costs around £950 more than a natural delivery. On top of that the average hospital stay is apparently 5.5 days versus 2 for natural. I was luck enough to be out within 10 hours of being admitted!

I am really not sure how I ended up debating this one as I am not particularly in favour of women having elective caesarians. But I am pro-choice and availability of healthcare to everyone under a National Health Service. If a woman chooses a caesarian and she has been properly informed about the risks of both caesarians and natural childbirth - neither are risk free, then that should be her right. Surely, we should be allowed some degree of control over our own healthcare.
I agree that it is rather sad that women opt for a caesarian for "cosmetic" or "convenience" reasons but I don't think that she should be made to pay for that choice under the current system.
Croppy, the NHS funds a huge array of non-lifesaving proceedures all the time. Cosmetic surgery, physiotherapy, abortions, IVF, dental work, etc etc. Where do you draw the line?

Croppy, sorry to keep banging on at you but you are very much mistaken about cosmetic surgery. My sister is a doctor and did one of her surgery rotations at Colchester General Hospital on the cosmetic team. She saw ears being pinned back, noses straightened, reduced, de-bumped. She saw breasts enlarged, decreased, equalised. She also saw tummy tucks, fat removal from eyelids and jowls. Basically, if you can convince a pyschiatrist that your "condition" is causing you sufficient distress then you will receive cosmetic surgery on the NHS.

Well according to my info from the NHS policy guidelines, non-medical cosmetic surgery is a "low priority treatment" on the same level as mild to moderate varicose veins, non-medical circumcision, dental implants and assisted conception. This means that patients won't be placed on waiting lists or receive any treatment unless they are approved as an exceptional case. In any case, these are only available in certain areas and overall are rare. For cosmetic surgery, the guidelines suggest that it should only be available where the misery is so great that it leads to issues such as excessive reliance on anti-depressants or suicide attemppts. If a woman's fear of natural birth is truly this great then logically, in those rare cases I guess elective C-section should be available. Big defference though to it being a "right" for all women.

According to the NCT, non-medically necessary elective Caesareans cost the NHS £30m last year.

Bugsy, are you sure that the tummy tucks and so on weren't being carried out on non-Brotish residents who were paying for the privelege?. This is fairly common in many NHS hospitals. Also, I wonder how much of the nose straightening, eye surgery and so on was after either accidents or surgery for other conditions?.

There was something on the news about women feeling that doctors take over what should be their own experience. It's still very much "doctor knows best" which in a way I can understand but at the same time its our baby and our body and mind. I find it annoying when they treat a birth like it's just nothing. I know to them it isn't and they see it literally everday but when you have a frightened woman, or you are the frightened woman I wish they wouldn't be so casual. I remember saying to my Mam ages before I got pregnant "do I ring 999 when I go into labour" and she said "no you bloody don't". It may not be an emergency but it feels like an emergency to the mother, especially the first time.

Regarding cosmetic/plastic surgery. It's plastic when it is for medical reasons eg a skin graft after a burn but cosmetic when it's for well cosmetic reasons. If it can be proven that a person might kill themselves if they don't have the surgery then it can be done on NHS. It is the same with sex-change ops. People laugh but it IS classes as life threatening. A large percent of people who don't get the treatment die. It would be higher if people couldn't get it NHS and then couldn't afford to go private. All life threatening illnesses/conditions should be paid for. At the moment some aren't until it's too late.

I had an elective caesarean but it certainly wasn't through choice. I was desperate for a natural birth and was hopeful till about 34 weeks because although the first baby was breech the other was in a good position. In the end, though one was breech and one was transverse and the consultant said it was too much of a risk to try a vaginal birth.
Although I am obviously eternally grateful that my children were born safely I really can't understand why anyone would 'choose' a c-section.
My blood pressure dropped dangerously low during the op, I couldn't get out of bed for 3 days and when I did I blacked out, I couldn't hold my babies properly for weeks and I felt like I'd been hit by a bus.
(I've had a number of operations for medical reasons so i'm quite used to the feeling afterwards....but of course, then I didn't have too babies to look after.)
Anyway, sorry for waffling on....but i just wanted to say that not everyone has a caesarian because they want an easy ride....and from my experience if thats what you're looking for then don't bother.
PS. I DON'T WANT TO FRIGHTEN ANYONE WHO MAY READ THIS WHO IS DUE TO HAVE A CAESAREAN. i'M ABSOLUTELY FINE NOW, AND i SAID BEFORE MY BABIES WERE BORN SAFE AND WELL. JUST ONE BIT OF ADVICE...MAKE SURE YOU'VE GOT SOME HELP AT HOME FOR THE FIRST LITTLE WHILE...BECAUSE IT'S DIFFICULT TO LIFT.

Emmam - I think your views are more common than you think. I certainly don't blame you for having them. If our society was a bit more open about breastfeeding and not so obsessed with 'Page 3' trivia then maybe more women would feel confident about their bodies. But I won't get started ... However I do think that for some women who have felt like you who have managed to b/feed successfully then it has given them a sense of confidence. Certainly size makes no difference at all!

I am not sure about CS - I don't have a strong opinion on this. I am surprised at the cost difference though and perhaps it should be tightened up. A friend of mine got an elective one on no grounds at all, apart from the fact that she had one the first time round (emergency). There was no reason why she couldn't have had the baby naturally. She just asked for it and got it. This I think is a bit silly.

Twinsmum - I mentioned earlier that my mum had me and my sister vaginally despite us being big and her breech. I was just wondering if anyone knew what the statistics were for complications/death of babies if they were lying in an awkward position say 30/40 years ago. What I mean to say is are CS really saving the lives of babies/mothers? I know that in America they were routinely given "just in case" to avoid doctors being sued. I just wondered if some doctors here felt that it was easier in some ways (for them)just to whip the baby out.

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Bloss, I did too (earlier post). I had no choice over my elective whatsoever as my son was transverse and did not turn by 39 weeks. I found "elective" an annoying term for this reason. I could have "elected" to try and deliver him naturally which would probably have been the end of both of us.
Like Twinsmum, I was quite ill after my operation. For reasons never satisfactorily explained to me, my wound ruptured when they took the stitches out and I had to be taken back to theatre urgently, just as my husband arrived to pick us up.
And, like Twinsmum, I am better now and have a lovely healthy son. But it took a long time.

Just to stress, when I say "elective" I mean based on concerns about muscle tone, sex life etc etc. I am surprised that transverse and breech positions are classed as being elective as surely they are justified on medical grounds....

Don't get me wrong, in a perfect health service I think it would be great if women were free to choose their method of delivery whatever that may be. Just like in a perfect world, women would have continuity of care throughout their pregnancy, be treated with dignity and respect during the birth process, feel in control, enjoy clean facilities, a degree of privacy and the ability to have their partners be with them after the birth. Sadly, as most of us here know, this isn't the case. Rationing on the NHS is a fact of life and personally, given that the extra cost of a c-section is roughly equivalent to one cycle of IVF treatment (rarely available nowadays on the NHS) I would rather see that cash going to help an infertile woman conceive than to a woman worried about the impact of a vaginal delivery on her sex life.... Of course if a woman is truly phobic about natural delivery to the extent that somebody with enormous sticking out ears is phobic about their appearance, then it should be considered. After all, in most cases, that WILL be medically justifiable.

As I have said previously, I am terrified at the thought of a C-section and desperately hope I don't ever have to have one!

Bloss - we aren't disagreeing here - the only reason was just that she had one before. There was no OTHER reason - she was perfectly fit enough to have a vaginal birth and many women do go on to do this. That's all I want to say on this rather emotive issue!