When does bilingual child start speaking 2nd language?

[IamPotty]

DS, almost 3, doesn?t speak his 2nd language but responds to his Father in English. Initially the 2 languages were very mixed, now he seems to have weeded out all of the 2nd language, though he understands it perfectly and enjoys reading and watching DVDs in that language. Is this common? When is he likely to actively start using his 2nd language?

IamPotty, from my experience bilingual children speak a little later than monolingual ones, but once they do they generally keep the languages separate.

We are raising our dd (4) and ds (2) bilingually using the opol (one person one language) approach and have been consistently speaking to them ONLY in our respective languages (me German, father in English). So far 4 year old speaks both languages surprisingly well without mixing them up (while my 2 year old is not talking much yet).

However, I think it is really important how much 'minority language' input children get. In our case I (mother) don't work, so spend a lot of time talking to them in German, in addition to lots of German DVDs, stories, holidays in German speaking countries....

How much exposure does your ds get of the minority language?

DS(4) has learnt his 2nd language (German) exclusively from 1 year at Kindergarten and previous time with a childminder. He has been what I would call truely fluent since just after he turned 4. DH & I are both British so English is the sole lanuage used at home.
I think perhaps he has found it fairly easy because the 2 languages are kept so seperate eg only English at home, mainly German at Kindergarten (they do have 1 morning of English per week).

Here it is English at home, French with friends, childcarers, school. Both said their first words in English but were speaking French almost straight away.
Are you in England? Sometimes children can be aware of being different and refuse to speak 2nd language if it makes them unlike others. Although the kids I know who did this were a bit older (4+)

I take it your dh is the only person speaking to him in the other language? IME (and it is quite extensive, I grew up bilingual and have lots of relatives who are bilingual to various degrees) your ds may never move beyond passive use of the 2nd lang (ie. understanding but not speaking) unless he is in a circumstance where he really needs to use it in order to communicate.

My youngest 2 siblings were in this position -- in their early childhood we had moved to UK, and by the age of about 3 they'd worked out that everyone in the house could speak English and that this second-language thing was just something that Mummy had dreamt up to annoy them. They used to systematically respond to her in English, and never became bilingual in the sense of being able to speak both langauges equally fluently. They can both understand the other language, and speak it in the sense of being able to communicated, but they don't sound like natives. Whereas I grew up moving between both countries, spent most of every holiday in my mother's country of origin with my non-english speaking relatives and had short stretches at school and university there. I do sound like a native speaker of both langs, though even I find my vocab gets a bit rusty when I haven't used it for a while.

You may need to send the children off to your dh's native country for a few weeks. Or borrow one of his teenage relatives to au pair for you, or send him to a target-language playgroup or school. One adult speaking another language in ano otherwise totally English environment is unlikely to be enough on its own to achieve true bilingualism. I didn't attempt to bring up my own children bilingually, because I knew it wouldn't really go anywhere.

Agree with frogs - only dh spoke his language to our dss (plus about 3 weeks a year in his country). I spoke English to them and we live in the UK. They are now 8 and 10 and have never spoken dh's language aloud although they do passively understand some. In fact they went through a very strong active resistance phase where they would put their fingers in their ears and shout if we tried to speak to them or read a story in dh's language. Sadly dh lost heart and gave up so now our boys are very monolingual.

Keep up the hard work -it is a great regret to us that we didn't manage this.

Thanks for your responses! Í am completely dismayed at the idea that DSs 2nd language could remain passive only. We live in a 3rd language country and have limited exposure to the second language (German by the way). Although DS does not speak German to his Father he does know stories by heart in German so it´s not that he really can´t or won´t speak the language.

DS knows that I speak German and thinks it hilarious when I do. Would it be an idea to start talking to my DH in German to raise the profile of the language? I´m told his English is very good for his age and I think it is worth a big effort to raise a "true" bilingual. I will continue to address DS in English only.

You can try, potty. But my experience (and the research literature) suggests that children are primarily interested in communication, and that they'll only voluntarily use a language if there's a direct communication need for it. In other words, once your ds has worked out that his dad is perfectly capable of speaking English, he's not going to see the need to speak German (I'm afraid the the long-term benefits of being able to speak German are wasted on a 3yo!). And passive knowledge in itself is still knowledge -- if your family circumstances change and he starts being surrounded by German, he'll be able to build on that knowledge for the purposes of spoken language once he sees the need to.

Personally, unless I had strong family links to the other country and could arrange for him to spend extended time there (ie. all of most school holidays, which is what I did as a child) I would be inclined to accept that his knowledge may remain passive only, particularly since it's his third language. Introducing or maintaining an additional language in what is effectively an unnatural family setting has huge potential for causing family conflict. In our family certainly there were endless arguments, sulks and strategic use of particular languages to annoy or exclude other family members. And if a child doesn't speak the other language to native speaker standards he or she will become reluctant to use it anyway because they are miserably aware that their usage is non-standard, and they will be very self-conscious about it. If you add in the fact that children are very keen to fit in and not to be seen as different, and the potential for them ending up feeling as if they don't really belong anywhere, and I really wouldn't go there, myself. If they're in a situation where it is natural to speak two languages, then fine. If it can only be achieved by engineering what is essentially an artificial situation, then imo it's not worth it. I made a conscious decision with my own children that we would be an English-speaking family. They can identify spoken German when they hear it, they can sing some songs and rhymes and they know simple greetings, but anything else they'll have to learn later.

I know this isn't what you want to hear, but I'm afraid those are my experiences.

I agree with frogs that it requires a lot of input of the minority language (German) if you want your child to be bilingual in an otherwise English speaking environment. And perhaps the time your ds spends with German speaking people (his father) is not enough for him to become fluent in German.

Even in our case, where I (mother) ONLY speak German to our dcs, they watch a lot of German tv/dvds, listen to German cds, go to German Saturday school once a week, spend holidays in Germany, etc., they sometimes start talking in English amongst each other, especially now that my dd has started School (in England).

But please do continue to give your ds as much exposure of German as you can, as even if he doesn't use it that much now, he will always have the ability to build on it later. And lots of the (difficult) phonemes of a language are learnt so much easier when children are young.

Could you spend some time during the holidays in a German speaking country? I find that always helps a lot.

Hm. Gosh! This is definitely not what I want to hear! We do spend all our holidays in a German speaking environment and this side of DSs family doesn´t speak English so perhaps there is hope.
Do any of you know some kind of German/Austrian holiday camp environment where DS can attend German-speaking kids clubs? I suppose something like Haven holidays but in Germany/Austria. This could be a good way forward - to get DS speaking German to peers rather that family.. Do you have any other ideas of the same ilk?

Wonder if there is some possibility of your ds mixing with German speaking dc on a regular basis. Whereabouts are you? Maybe we can track something down.

Yes, we know Germans and German-speaking children but are already in the habit of speaking English. I´m afraid the parents are quite determined to use me to help their own as well as their children´s English... To the extent the parents even speak English to their own children (who are too young to understand) when I am present! I DO SPEAK GERMAN by the way!

Hmm yes I see the difficulty. I have to say that dd's Russian language output over the years amounts pretty much to .....zero despite regular contact with the language. There is just no motivation for dc to use a language they don't need. No wonder really, it is damn hard work. Dd knows very well that anyone here speaking to her in Russian understands either German or English so she will never answer in Russian, ever. It's a shame in some ways but there you go.

I think it is a positive thing that your ds enjoys listening to stories read in German and wants to watch German dvds. He'll learn a lot that way. He may, when he is older, feel motivated to speak German and then he will have a fantastic basis to start from. I wouldn't give up on it.

Is there a German church (with Sunday school) or a German Saturday School or children's choir that sings in German or anything like that near where you live?

That´s a good idea re a church!! I´ll look in to that! Will investigate now!! Thanks!

IamPotty, we had the same problem with our dd who spoke English to dh though he had only ever spoken German to her. Both dss had spoken German to him from the start. It changed when she started Kindergarten, luckily, though her language skills are rotten at least she's now finally interested in it.

I found it was also good to get them to do things together without me, though I appreciate that's not as easy when you're not in Germany. If his passive skills are good, then don't lose heart, friends of our here had the same thing with their Spanish-speaking children who only really took to it actively when they visited their grandparents in South America at about age 5. Once they'd cracked the habit of actively using the language, they found it easier to switch.

I also wondered about dh & I only speaking English although the experts claim what counts is the lang you use with the child. If you have loads of books, DVDs, tapes etc then he'll get the input.

Austria is supposedly good for family hotels, though I find it hard to understand them

IamPotty, have a look on the internet at www.kinderhotels.com. We have stayed a couple of these very child friendly hotels and the kids clubs and children facilities are really excellent. Plus, the children can practice their German!
We particular liked the hotel Alpenrose in Lermoos - see www.alpenrose.com.

IamPotty, in which country do you live?

annasmami, do you know these books from Ravensburger? I really like them. Not too much text, little flaps you can open on each page. The great thing is they come with tapes/cds which have children and an adult going and speaking with metereologen or archaeologists etc, then they time jump into the stone age or whatever and have some catchy tunes inbetween.

Dd enjoys listening to these and she's learnt a lot. We have the ones about dinasours, the weather, the earth, the stone age, knights and Indians.

wiesoweshalbwarum

annasmami, which other Kinderhotels do you know? They are great aren´t they! Can´t remember why, but I´ve always decided against the Alpenrose, though I thought it looked great initially.

Iamp... DS is almost 4 and have always spoke Catalan to his father, Spanish to me, and English in nursery and school. At the beginning it was a bit of a mix up never being able to recognise what a bable may mean with 3 languages to choose from. But now they are separated, and although DS is more proficient in the one he uses most (English), his Spanish and Catalan are not bad, although we have noticed that he is not very familiar with plurals in Catalan [!]. DH is the only person who speaks Catalan to DS when we are in the UK, DS speaks Catalan to him and understands Daddy speaks English but he also knows his father won't reply if he doesn't speak to him in Catalan (blame it in the aftereffects of Franco's dictatorship, DH ,as many of his friends, is ready to fight any battle to keep his language alive)

What I find incredible is how fast he is catching up with the language during holidays, after 2 days he is speaking the language of the place all the time.

Message withdrawn

Chandra, really interesting how your DH "forces" DS to speak Catalan. I´m not sure if my DH is determined enough to do this but I think it´s definitely worth a try! I´m really concerned that DS is using less and less German in his speech.. the languages are clearly seperate, with German only used when he doesn´t know the English word.
Pitchounette, this thread has also really scared me! Awful isn´t it!

My experience is the same as Frogs really. As children we grew up in an Italian speaking household and went on holiday to Italy often. However my Italian to this day is ok but a bit rusty. My sisters improved it as they got older with extended staus in the country. I never really did this so was always shy to speak Italian. The sad fact is that as a 'biligual' child I was expected to speak Italian pretty well but if I made mistakes (which I did ofen) people were constantly correcting me or making (lighthearted) fun of me which put me off big time.

My niece and nephew are in the opposite situation - English native tongue mother and a lot of exposure (2 holidays a year) to English speaking. My niece also spent 6 months at nursery here when she was 2-3 years old. My niece and nephew (now 14 and 12) understand almost all things said in English - happily watch complicated English films but my nephew in particular is very shy of actually speaking English, my niece a bit less so. both of them make quite a lot of mistakes and sopund very Italian when they speak - A bit like I sound English when I speak Italian.

My feeling though is that if you want to maintain a connection to the 2nd culture/language then you should accept that a passive understanding is enough to make sure your child is not excluded from family multi-lingual events. As long as they undertand what is being said and can communicate that is pretty much OK.

I have no problem with my niece and nephew speaking Italian and me speaking English to them. For them their English is definitley more passive than active but when they spend more than 2-3 weeks her they do start to speak more English towards the end of the holiday. Also if my niece brings Italian friends with her she often takes on the role of translator for them and speaks more English as she needs to. The view of their father (who is Italian) is that any English is better than none and that if they need to come to England to work/live they already have a major advantage over someone who doesn't speak or understand the language at all. It gives them more options but they are not truely bilingua ansd won't be unless they choose to spend some time in the UK and really improve their English - None of us ever expected they would be though.

Just to also say I spent ALL of my summer holidays in Italy each year (minimum 6 weeks) and my niece and nephew have spent 6 weeks in England each year since they were toddlers and two weeks each Christmas.

The truth is a Frogs says I pretty much refused to speak Italian at home despite always being addressed in talian by my mother, father and Grandfather (who lived with us all my childhood). I pretty much spoke only Italian until I went to nursery but as soon as I started nursey and caught up with English I chose to relegate Italian to a second passive language and that is how it stayed (for me anyway). My sisters had more interest in it and definitely spoke it better hen me but this difference only became apparent when they were adults and made the conscious choice to improve their Italian.

The thread has really scared me too, especially Lazycow's post. My 18mo DD is being brought up bilngual English/Italian and I always presumed that using the OPOL method speaking two languages would be a natural progression, particularly as I do spend a lot of time singing/playing/reading to her in English and she has English DVDs. That said, my DD attends a local nursery full time and I've noticed that Italian has definitely become the dominant language as she only says about 4 words and maybe 1 phrase in English, everything else is in Italian. I had expected this to a certain extent, but I did believe that it would even out over time, particularly as I planned to send her off to the UK regularly for school holidays when she is older.

Now I hear this is not enough Aargh! I'm definitely going to be watching her closely over the next few years to see what happens, and if necessary refuse to speak to her unless she speaks English when she's a bit older. Up until now I had a pretty laissez-faire attitude, thinking that as long as it's going in it'll come out somehow, but now I'm not so sure.

On the other hand, might it not depend on the aptitude of the individual child? I do have a friend who was born and brought up in France, with a French father and English mother, spent the odd holiday in Guernsey (definitely not every year), yet speaks perfect English with just the faintest trace of an accent. Same thing with an ex bf who was half Greek and had always lived there, yet his English was perfect. So maybe there is hope?