Smacking children can affect schooling Smacking children can affect schooling Smacking children can affect schooling Smacking children can affect schooling

[papillon]

this

Bloss of course I do things my children dislike. I have use time outs with them - sitting on the stairs and they both dislike that. They understand that when they can't behave they have to go and sit on their own to think about it and calm down. By hurt of course I mean physically - hitting, kicking, being too rough, pulling hair, pinching etc. And I think to justify hitting by comparing it to an extreme situation when it would be self defence is not relevant here either.

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I've not banished ds to his room or ever employed time out. If it had been necessary then I would have done either. I wouldnot though have hit him. I try to lead by example and I dont want him to believe this is the way to handle situations nor that violence is a form of punishmnt. TbhI cant recall a time we have "punished" him and yet he is very well behaved.
He is not scared of us and I disagree that they should be in order for yoy to be an effective parent. Ds behaves because he RESPECTS" us rather than fears us. Personally I would rather him behave because he respects us and understands why he should behave rather than becausre he is scared of being hit.
Dh was alsdo very well behaved and his parents are very anti hitting and humiliation. He behaved because he had a great respect and love for thjem.

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I've assumed it's not humiliating because on the very rare occasions I've done this (well, DH has done this) she's not been remotely phased. TBH I don't think this would be an appropriate/enforceable consequence much beyond the toddler stage anyway.

At the same time, there will be episodes throughout our lives when the consequences of our behaviour may leave us feeling humiliated. I've no doubt that the 50 something clerk I've had to tick off about time-keeping today is humiliated, because she's not the sort of person that appreciates having 25 year old me as her line manager. To a certain extent humiliation of some kind at some time is unavoidable.Personally I feel taht the sort of humiliation that results from being hit is different, but that's from watching the reactions of other kids. sorry, there's something about smacking that makes me queasy.

I really should leave this now! I'm not cut out for a debate on this as my response is emotionally-driven.

Looked up scared in the dictionary and it means to be frightened or worried. Ds nor dd are frightened of us and I would hate to think they were.

Okay a two year old doesnt have the respect thing but how can then hitting a two year old be acceptable? What is the purpose?

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Will have to disagree then secur because to me being scared is far more than being apprehensive.

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See your point.

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basically it comes down to...
some people/parents think some smacking is appropriate
some parents don't
There is no right or wrong answer to this really is there? Talking about the minor smacking only obviously....
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We are all agreed that a life of intimidation and fear and violence is NOT acceptable or excusable, nor is hitting with implements, such as straps, belts or leather shaving strops (as many of my schoolfriends dads had one on their walls)
The society in NZ which the article refers is violent, the pacific cultures are based on violence, child abuse, sexual violence, spousal abuse and inter family and racial attacks are commonplace. In some such families, being done over or parental rape is actually seen as a rite of passage in the Islands.. They migrated to NZ and obviously as the laws and cultures are so different, they now face a serious conflict withing NZ. And have done for years. The children of these families do under achieve academically, many are on benefits, alcohol, gambling and gangs are all a way of life too for many. Some become super sporting figures, Jonah Lomu for instance was brough up in a very strict religious and physically disciplined house...
I used to live within a in NZ with my mum after parents divorced... I was terrified of some of my friends parents and brothers. They were in my eyes evil, but these kids would happily break rules, knowing exactly what was in store, we are talking broken bones etc...
Cultural differences aside, how do you go towards fixing this sort of parenting which is a way of life for some?
????

Secur if it is done properly and with consideration it is not humiliating. For it to be humilating that would mean it was done to make the parent feel better and not to educate the child-
Just to ask a question to everyone how do you do things in public or away from your house?

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TBH it's all the same. my only real gripe with DD is that she can be a whingebag at times (have no idea where she gets it from ) so it's not really been something i've had to deal with. When she was very small (so from 12-18 months) we had a few episodes where she was strapped in her buggy because she ran off, but I just ignored the wails. She was cross and that was her way of expressing it. Loud noise but not a tear in sight.

i remember every single time i was smacked. not many. and not bad physically. but the shame was just awful. i find it hard to understand how my parents could do it. i don't know what i think is worse: a parent losing it and smacking despite themselves, or a parent coolly using physical punishment in a thought out way...actually i do know, the second is infinitely worse imo. bit tangential, but have any of you seen etre et avoir about a tiny school in france with only one teacher and one class of mixed ages: he didn't use physical punishment or shouting and was asolutely respected and obeyed by all the class...not through fear, but through love and respect and total fairness.

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I very rarely have to tell dd off and have not really considered humiliation aspect other than I never tell her off infront of people and I always ask her why she has done something and suggest a different way - I have never done the oh no that's wrong and always try to find the positive to praise.

i understand now what you are saying secur - I suppose we have to maintain congruence between how they see themselves and how they are treated to have the maximum sucess in instillinggood behaviour traits

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Bloss, I am definately not at all upset by anything that you have said but am amazed that you can be so rude and make judgements about what others say in a patronising and snide way. You assume that people who dont smack are saying something and assume that they operate in a certain way when you have no idea at all. Most of this thread has appeared to me to be people testing ideas and assumptions in a spirit of enquiry not getting at the other side at all but trying to reach an understanding. Even when we disagree it is usually ok but some of what you have said is just plain rude.

Ummm Piffle, could I digress a moment and take respectful issue with your description of Pacific culture being based on violence? I have not lived in NZ as you have done, but I have worked there for 3 months, exclusively with Maori and Pacific Island groups and young people, and have an ongoing relationship (for 10 years now) with a mixed theatre company focussed entirely on culture and identity. Whilst it is true that there are high levels of violence, drink, abuse etc, that is in common with many displaced ghetto-ised and poor communities around the world, and impoverished rural white communities tend also to mete out 'rough justice' - in Canada, Rural America. Having lived on Marae for 3 months, I saw nothing that made me think Maori family values / culture is based on violence. Not much is known in the UK about Pacific island or maori culture - I think it's important not to generalise.
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I ahve realised that apart from a memory of my Mum slapping my arm in sheer exasperation on one particular occasion, I have no memory of any actual punishments at all. No grounding, no being sent to room or time out. No stopped pocket money or withheld treats. But I do remember being very clear when we had casued our parents displeasure, or they were disappointed because we had not lived up to our own standards. Not in an emotional balckmail sort of way, but in a way that made me want to behave well for the benefit of others. And nowadays, I don't park on double yellow lines PRIMARILY because of fear of parking fines, but because I accept it as part of a shared system of traffic/car management, and know that illegally parked cars block roads, slow traffic, block emergency services etc.

Of course punishments, of any kind, are meant to inflict something undesirable, and all instil a sense of momentary shame or embarrassment.

It's possible that i avoided punishment because i was so good at not getting caught (it certainly wasn't because i am a right goody-two-shoes) but if we can, we ALL (all MN-ers that i have seen post) try to pursue a discipline without punishment route, i.e use positive parenting to elicit good behaviour through understanding, kindness and respect. To an extent we have all failed (smackers and non-smackers alike) the moment we have to inflict 'punishment', so it can't be perfect by definition!