Would you really sign this letter?

[tigermoth]

Opinons needed please. Would you sign a letter of protest against the unchecked bullying behaviour of a 13 year old boy? The letter will be seen by his parents, scout leaders and very probably by the boy himself.

This boy was in my ds1's primary school class and has a reputation for bullying. He often hit and provoked my son. We told the teachers and my son kept away from him as much as possible. My son says the boy had no friends by the end of year 6. As far as I know he is not special needs and is not statemented.

I have seen him in action at school parties and scout meetings where he has been very disrespectful to adults (me!)in a snide, considered and sneaky way. I have seen him deliberately goading my son into a fight so he can hit him hard. My son left scounts mainly becuase this boy was bullying him.

His mother and father are very active in the school, church and scouts, often helping out. They have a long history with the school and church as they have other children there. They seem to turn a blind eye to their son's behaviour (I have witnessed this several times myself and been gobsmacked at their ability to ignore, and I am a pretty laid back, un protective sort of mother). They are best friends with the scout leaders and go on all the camps.

Now 3 or 4 other boys are leaving the scout troup as they are so fed up with this boy's bullying and the fact that the scout leaders see what is going on but do not stop it property or exlude the boy from meetings.

So, a letter is being drafted by one of the parents in protest at this boy's behaviour, citing specific incidents and signed by all who have suffered over the last few years. The parent wants dh and I to detail incidents of bullying we saw and explain that our son left scouts because of this boy. (We had made another excuse when my son left).

On the one hand I want to support it. I agree that this boy has caused misery, stopped other boys enjoying scouts and the adult who should be stepping in seem afraid to act.

On the other, I keep thinking of the parents and boy - and how would I feel if I got such a letter about my son . And even more so, how would my son feel to get such a letter .

Seeing everything written down like this at the impressionable age of 13 could do all sorts of damage. It's a lasting testimony from many of the boys he has grown up with.If the boy has a self esteem problem, as bullies often do, this letter will confirm the worst. On the other hand,it might just be the wake up call he needs. I don't know.

So what would you do? Would you sign the letter?

i wouldn;t ...he might be naughty, a bully and a hurtful child, but he is a child, not the most positive way to deal with this

wouldn;t add my name to a witch hunt

Ooh difficult one. If they have any sensitivity the boys parents wouldn't show him the letter but they may and that may destroy him. Then again they sound like they have their heads firmly in the sand about their sons behaviour.

My instinct would be to not sign it as it smacks of a pack mentality which will have unkind reprecussions. If the concerned parents had any backbone they should talk to the offending boys parents face to face.

I wouldn't. There must be a better way of dealing with this. If no adult has addressed the problem so far, then what is this letter supposed to do? As far as I can see it would just be a way of putting in writing the dislike that everyone appears to have for this boy. Not helpful at all imo. I may have misunderstood this but it seems a bit of a cop-out in that no-one has actually spoken to the boy about it.
As regards your son leaving scouts, why did you make up an excuse? Why not give the real reason? If people don't give a clear picture of what is happening, then how are others to know about the problems? Has anyone spoken to his parents about his bullying? If so, what do they think about it?

I don't think a mass protest letter like this is the way to go. Although, having said that, individual complaints about the boy can be brushed aside on the basis that no one else has complained.

If all responsible adults, as in scout leaders, etc., are ignoring the problem, then it is difficult to see how to deal with it. Clearly all these people are aware of the boy's behaviour but are choosing not to tackle it. Why? Is it because they are worried about how the parents will react? That they will withdraw their support from scouts, school, church, etc? That really isn't helping the boy.

Perhaps the best way to go is for the concerned parents of other children to request a meeting with the scout leaders to discuss why this boy is allowed to behave as he does. Nothing in writing so the boy will have nothing to see and hopefully the leaders will wake up to the fact that, by protecting this boy, they are losing others from their troop.

On the other hand, perhaps a harsh letter is the wake-up call that this boy and his parents need. I've seen the effect that lax parenting can have on a disruptive boy - it ended with the police on my doorstep trying to locate him because he'd been shooting people (with a BB gun, but pellets nonetheless).

Everyone ignoring the behaviour of this child is not doing the child any favours at all.

Sorry, TM, not much help!

i think first all the bullying should be told to the mum, every incident.
if she doesnt do anything then she deserves to get such a letter.

No, I wouldn't. I agree with your point that such a testimonial of general dislike and disapproval could be disastrous for a boy who clearly already has psychological difficulties - a bully is never a happy child IMO, however hard the exterior may appear.

Not quiet the same situation, but I have an anecdote which might help a bit in making your decision. When I was nearly 12 I received a letter which had been written in the form of five sections by the five girls I had been "hanging around with" and thought were my friends. It wasn't about bullying because I wasn't a bully. However it did make the point very bluntly that they didn't want me around, that I was ugly, boring, horrible, attention-seeking, smelly, and not socially up to their expectations, and that I was spoiling their group of friends by hanging around with them. It was quite a long letter, they had written a paragraph each. It hurt me to the point of physical sickness. The thing is, I was an attention-seeking, disruptive child and probably not great company for them - but the letter certainly didn't help (well, it may have helped them but it didn't help me!).

I really wouldn't sign it.

You say the boy's parents have other children. Are they older/younger? What is their behaviour like?

no I wouldn't. It would be very wrong to do so. Take a mass protest to the scout leaders by all means, but a withchunt of a child would leave a very bad taste for me.

In fact I wouldn't just not sign it, I would try to persuade the other parents to abandon the idea and find another way of airing their grievances.

NurseyJo raises a good point - the tone of the letter. I wouldn't sign a letter that said "Your son is a nightmare and we all hate him and you are useless parents" - which is how the parents will interpret it no matter what you write.

i think one parent should approach the scout leader and, with the permission of the other parents, list their names and say this is something they all agree on. But get the tone right.

Don't sign the letter, you're right about the damage it may cause.

Are you sure he has no special needs - do the parents have their heads in cement?

We had exactly this situation last year! Little sh*t from thoroughly nice family. I really don't agree with the 'witch hunt' approach - anyone with a grievance should write a letter to the Scout Leader. Here's what happened to my sons... I've taken all the names out - my 2 are child C and child D - the bully was child A as you'll soon gather. Child B was a classmate of one of my sons.

(Leader)
1st A Scouts

4th February 2006

Dear S,

You will be aware that I have commented on Child A?s unacceptable behaviour at intervals over the past few years. I have found it intolerable that from the age of about 9 he has frequently used expletives in the presence of younger children.

I have suggested to you on several occasions that his parents should be informed, but I understand and respect the fact that you have preferred to deal with him yourself and that his behaviour has always improved in the short term.

Recent incidents, however, have escalated to the point where I believe that it would be wrong of you to fail to inform his family, as I am certain that they will be best placed to decide on an appropriate punishment.

It is also my belief that, if the Scout Movement?s anti-bullying policy had been strictly adhered to, then Child A should have been asked to leave 1st A some time ago.

Firstly, I would like to remind you that Child B felt compelled to leave A Scouts following persistent verbal bullying from G, who referred to Child B?s large brown birthmark on his face as ?dirty? and said that Child B was ?ugly?. I am aware that Child B?s behaviour is often viewed as confrontational by other children, but that is absolutely no excuse for the remarks directed at him by Child A.

Child C was upset following Friday?s Scout meeting as he said that Child A called him a ?spastic?. Child C tells me that Child A regularly uses this term to insult other children, but is careful not to do so in the presence of an adult.

These incidents alone would be sufficient to warrant taking further action, but you can imagine my horror when Child D then informed me that Child A had shown several children pornographic images on his mobile phone at last Saturday?s swimming gala.

Apparently Child A approached several children in the lobby before the start of the gala. Child D is certain that X was one of them and thinks that the others may have been Y and two of her friends.

Child D was very reluctant to describe the images in detail, but said that he saw two colour photographic images of naked women, including - in his own words - one of a ?woman licking another woman?s parts?. Another was an animated cartoon which culminated in ?Spiderman with an erection shooting semen at a woman?.

In my opinion it is essential that the parents of all the children who may have seen this unsavoury material should be informed immediately and reassured that action is being taken to make Child A understand that his behaviour is totally inappropriate and unacceptable.

We all know that Child A comes from a thoroughly decent family, so I can only assume that his parents are unaware of his behaviour at Scout meetings and camps. Having helped at camps and other events myself many times, I cannot think of another child whose behaviour has been so persistently bad and who has been threatened with being sent home on so many occasions.

I do not think I have ever met Mr A, but having known Mrs A slightly for about 11 years, I strongly believe that she will want to be informed of these incidents and to have the chance to address the issue - an opportunity that has been denied to her so far because no one has wanted to criticise her son in view of the tremendous work that she performs for the group.

Yours sincerely,

Fortyplus

I wouldn't sign it. Think it is the wrong way to deal with this entirely. Very tricky situation but I think the only way forward is with a conversation not a letter.

If you do sign it then make sure it's agreed exactly who it goes to - perhaps just the parents marked confidential and making it clear they should not show the boy and hide it.

Don't send a letter to the parents they will be mortified.

If no one has ever said anything they probably think that his behaviour isn't that outrageous.

A well-written confidential letter to the scout leader like fortyplus's sounds better.

I agree though it's an awkward situation to be in.

I wouldn't do it in the form of a letter as it's isolating for the boy and the parents.

I would request a meeting, through the scout leaders, and ask the boy's parents and all the other parents involved, ie the ones who were going to sign the letter, to sit down and discuss the problem. I would go armed with as much information on bullying as possible, particularly details of where help can be found, and I would try to be as non-confrontational and supportive as possible.

If the parents took no notice I'd then consider some kind of further action (don't know what as I've not been in this situation, thankfully), but I really wouldn't send a letter.

Yes - I think setting out the issues in a letter is ok, I just disagree with having a 'petition' type letter for everyone to sign.
I believe that anyone with an issue should set it out in their own words - not just sign a general one.
When I drafted my letter last year, I was very conscious of the boy's parents' feelings - I tried to imagine how I would feel if someone was saying those things about my son.
The boy causing the problems at our Scout group had a lovely mum who was absolutely mortified by my letter, but said that she was pleased that I'd written it.
It's very important to stick to the facts - avoid any general statements and refer to specific incidents.

batters - the boy was suspended from Scouts for 3 months. His behaviour did improve though he had to be reminded subsequently to watch his step. My older son left Scouts soon afterwards because he was bored with it - my younger one is 11.5 now and has said that he wants to leave after Christmas.
The 'bully' is now training to be a young leader! He's had a lot of trouble at school, too, so I really hope that he has learned from the experience and will become a better person because of it.

Don't sign the letter. 13 is too old for scouts surely. The lad is probably trying to break free from his churchy, scouty family. Also real life doesn't work like that, we don't sign petitions about people at work. J

What a difficult one. I just typed 'could you write your own letter to the scout master explaining why your son left?' and then I thought the scout master's view would be, quite understandably, why didn't you say so at the time because then he could have tackled it. I think, sorry to say, that this isn't really your problem any more if your son has nothing to do with this boy. But it's very unfair that no-one is stopping this boy and he's getting away with unacceptable behaviour. Could you speak to the scout master rather than join in a letter thing? Then it wouldn't run the risk of being shown to anyone and you would have done your bit but informally.

If my DD was bullying people I would want to know about it so that I could speak to her about it. In some cases the parents never find out so how can anything be done about it?

If the parents know that he's been bullying then perhaps it needs something to indicate how serious it is, but I'm not sure what. It would perhaps be worth getting the scout leaders involved & see if they could have a word with the parents as they may be considered to be less biased as it's not their children involved.

Thanks for all your thoughts on this. They are coming at a very apt time.

As it now happens, tomorrow I am seeing the parent who wants to draft the letter. She is coming round for a christmas drink. I do not know exactly what words she has in mind or to whom the letter will be addressed, but the latter is an academic point as the letter could be read by anyone.

The more I think about it the more worried I am that this boy will read it. I would not wish that on anyone. (Greensleeves, your story about your five friends is heartbreaking).

I also feel a bit out of touch with what's happening at scouts as my son left a year ago. Batters and www, you are right in that my son has no contact with this boy now so it is not our direct problem.

However, the parent whose idea it is to draft the letter is very active herself at church, school and scouts, so must have looked at this situation from many angles. She is also quite outspoken so I am sure she has tried to make her views known to the scout leader. In the past, she has said to me that anything she says to the leaders falls on deaf ears as the boy's parents are so involved with helping the troup.

She is in the process of withdrawing both her children from the scout troup on account of this bullying. I will hopefully know more tomorrow when I talk to her. I do need to ask her why she feels a letter and not a meeting is the way to go. I would lend my support to her for a meeting if necessary.
Must dash, will come back later!

If it is likely that a verbal complaint to the scout leader will not be acted on, I would consider expressing my concerns to the next level up - District Commisioner. They certainly will want to investigate the situation to satisfy themselves that the scout group is being run in the proper manner.

As others have said, much better to talk rather than write, and also, as your children have already left, it really can't involve you anymore.