Would you really sign this letter?

[tigermoth]

Opinons needed please. Would you sign a letter of protest against the unchecked bullying behaviour of a 13 year old boy? The letter will be seen by his parents, scout leaders and very probably by the boy himself.

This boy was in my ds1's primary school class and has a reputation for bullying. He often hit and provoked my son. We told the teachers and my son kept away from him as much as possible. My son says the boy had no friends by the end of year 6. As far as I know he is not special needs and is not statemented.

I have seen him in action at school parties and scout meetings where he has been very disrespectful to adults (me!)in a snide, considered and sneaky way. I have seen him deliberately goading my son into a fight so he can hit him hard. My son left scounts mainly becuase this boy was bullying him.

His mother and father are very active in the school, church and scouts, often helping out. They have a long history with the school and church as they have other children there. They seem to turn a blind eye to their son's behaviour (I have witnessed this several times myself and been gobsmacked at their ability to ignore, and I am a pretty laid back, un protective sort of mother). They are best friends with the scout leaders and go on all the camps.

Now 3 or 4 other boys are leaving the scout troup as they are so fed up with this boy's bullying and the fact that the scout leaders see what is going on but do not stop it property or exlude the boy from meetings.

So, a letter is being drafted by one of the parents in protest at this boy's behaviour, citing specific incidents and signed by all who have suffered over the last few years. The parent wants dh and I to detail incidents of bullying we saw and explain that our son left scouts because of this boy. (We had made another excuse when my son left).

On the one hand I want to support it. I agree that this boy has caused misery, stopped other boys enjoying scouts and the adult who should be stepping in seem afraid to act.

On the other, I keep thinking of the parents and boy - and how would I feel if I got such a letter about my son . And even more so, how would my son feel to get such a letter .

Seeing everything written down like this at the impressionable age of 13 could do all sorts of damage. It's a lasting testimony from many of the boys he has grown up with.If the boy has a self esteem problem, as bullies often do, this letter will confirm the worst. On the other hand,it might just be the wake up call he needs. I don't know.

So what would you do? Would you sign the letter?

Just back to add that I thought your letter was very good fortyplus. It stated the facts without using emotive language. The issues raised were of a general disciplinary nature - scout rules and guidelines - not malicious digs at the boy. I can see you trod very carefully regarding his parents' contribution to the troup and ended on a positive note about them. I am glad it prompted action and presumably you have not fallen out with the boy's parents.

Somehow I am not surprised that the boy is training to be a scout leader. It so mirrors our situation so much! I get the impression that the boy we have problems with is very keen on scouting. He was always there each week, always went on the camps etc. His parents (as I have said before) have a long history of helping the troup, as their older sons were also keen scouts. That's one reason why I backed down from confrontation as my son was never that keen on scouts and I was not particularly involved in the movement myself. I felt I did not have the right to go on the attack. I think this is what keeps other parents quiet, too.

I do think one possible cause of this boy's problems is the fact that he is the youngest of three boys and so might have been bullied himself. I am only surmising this as I do not know the family well and have never met the older siblings. Perhaps the parents have got so used to a bullying culture within the family that they do not notice it any more.

I remember being a helper at one meeting along with the other boy's mother. There was some general unruliness centered around several boys including my son and this boy. My son was asked to sit out of an activity for a few minutes to cool off. I had no problems with that as he deserved it. The rest of the troup carried on with a quiet and structured activity. The other boy suddenly left his seat, walked across the hall and over to my son and started verbally goading him. Not a word was said by the scout leader or his mother. The boy was left to carry on for several minutes until the leader half heartedly asked him to go back to his seat. I was just incredulous but as I was meant to be an impartial helper (and this was the first time I had helped in a scout meeting) I bit my tongue.

Later I told my son that it was his choice to stay or go - I would never force him to go to scouts and would support him if he wanted to leave.

During the months leading up to him leaving, I had several pointed talks with the leader about the boy and my son. I warned her that they did not get on with each other at school. I said that she needed to keep them as much apart as possible and control any bullying she saw (me trying to be tactful).

Then what did she do - she reorganised the sixes and put my son in the same six as this boy, also making him the leader! That was the final straw for my son and he left, never to return.

"There must be a better way of dealing with this"
"Don't send a letter to the parents they will be mortified."
"I wouldn't do it in the form of a letter as it's isolating for the boy and the parents."

I'm sorry but I really don't understand all of you. If this boy has been a persisitent bully and no-one is facing up to it, least of all the parents, what is wrong with a carefully worded letter? I agree the letter should stick to the facts and not be nasty, but still, surely something needs to be done.

Clearly the scout leader is NOT going to do anything, and it sounds as if this boy's problems are not confined to scouts anyway. He's probably bullying other kids at school as well and no one is doing a damn thing about it. What on earth is wrong with giving the parents a bit of a wake-up call. He probably acts like a complete angel to them and always has an excuse ready whenever there's a problem. This may be the first time anyone has honestly told them just what their son is like.

If you disagree with a group letter then send them an individual one but FFS, do something. You're all so worried about damaging this boy - and while I agree that simply labelling him a naughty child isn't helpful - ignoring it and simply letting him carry on is even less so. I don't know how big or mature this boy is but at 13 it's not going to be long before he goes beyond goading and taunting and seriously beats the crap out of someone.

Just had a quick read tigermoth, and I would suggest to your friend that she takes this up with the District Commissioners as suggested earlier. I guess it would be best if she told the Scout Leader that she was going to do so, and possibly give him a final chance to sort this out. I would also suggest that she lets him know that a complaint would be made not just by her but by several other parents too.

After giving the matter some thought, I also think that a letter is not a good idea in this situation. In fortyplus's case, particularly with respect to the pornography, I think it was the right thing to do as the boy had broken some very specific rules. But general bullying is such an emotive subject and letters can be open to misinterpretation and can also fall into the wrong hands. It may be that the District Commissioner asks for the complaints in writing, which is a different matter altogether, and could be dealt with in confidence.

Hope all that makes sense and is of some use to you.

I wouldn't write it down.

We all know at the very least from experience on MN how things can be misconstrued in writing.

You can write something, you can think you know how it'll be taken, you can be as careful with the words as you like, but somebody will take the one phrase you weren't 110% sure of and twist it so that it screws everything else up.

MUCH better to do it face to face with the parents, the scout leaders, etc. Have notes, by all means, refer to specific incidents, but do not just chuck a letter with all sorts of however carefully worded allegations into a family situation you know nothing of.

Having been the recipent of a letter asking me to leave a toddler group due to my perceived poor parenting skills. It is mortifying to feel you are being judged by those not able to speak to you face to face about the issue.

It's tricky but I would not sign the letter. Surely there must be someone you can speak directly and confidentially to about it.

tigermoth - thanks for the positive comments re: my letter. I do agree with what some others have said - showing younger children pornographic images is a very different matter to general naughtiness!
I had made comments about this boy to the scout leaders from time to time for 4 years and nothing had been done to improve his behaviour long term. So look what it led to! Maybe if I'd set out my concerns in a letter at an earlier stage then his bad behaviour wouldn't have had such an extreme end result.
Did you show your friend this thread?

grouchyoscar - I think that what happened to you sounds terrible! But a 13 year old is an entirely different matter - sometimes it helps for other people to become involved - children are far more independent at that age so we don't always know what they're up to - teachers/youth leaders etc don't feed back on a daily basis in the same way that they would at age 4.

well I am back coming to this having shared two bott;es of cava with the parent who highligted this boy's beaviour.

Firstly she is not the one actualluy drafting the letter (so I was wrong there) but secondly, I think she feels as I do that if the letter fell into the wrong hands (ie the boys) it would be very damaging. Too much.

I have said I will go along to any meeting with the leaders of the scouts to say things face to face, as I think this is more effective. My friend thinks this is a better idea than sending a letter. I hope she can now convice the letter drafter that a face to face talk is the best way to go.

Oh that all sounds quite positive tigermoth. Good for you for agreeing to go to a meeting too. Let us know how you get on

Yes, good for you, tigermoth. But do bear my experience in mind - I played the 'tactful' game for 4 years and my 12 year old son ended up being shown pornographic images by the little sh*t! With the benefit of hindsight it would've been better if I'd acted sooner.

I do believe a face-to-face meeting is best as a first step. However, if this doesn't improve matters, then I think a letter to the District Commissioner is the way to go. Unlikely the letter will reach the boy and, whatever the motivation of the scout leaders in allowing this boy to carry on unchecked, it is unlikely to continue once other interested parties get involved.

Hi 40+

Yeah, older kids are a different matter totally. I just wanted to say how devastating it is to get a highly personal letter.

Just to say, I haven't ruled out the letter route. I do take your point, fortyplus.

I am just worried that any letter, even if addressed to the disctrict commissioner only, will be shown to the scout leader. As she is good friends with the boy's parents there is a risk she will say something to them. Or they will just find out somehow that this letter is floating around and demand to read it.

I do think it is a last resort, though - the leader needs to be warned that parents are prepared to put their concerns in writing.

grouchyoscar - agree. It must have been awful for you to have your parenting skills criticised. When I wrote my letter about the boy at my son's Scout Group I was very careful to stress the positive attitude of the family and just refer to specific incidents. His family were very supportive in disciplining him - they had no idea what was going on.

tigermoth - I don't blame you for being reticent - after all, as you've said before - this boy isn't a problem to you any more. But something needs to be done - it's just a case of how best to handle it.

by all means write a letter but do it as a generic letter about bullying being an issue. describe insidents as " a child was seen pushing another child" etc

and explain that many members have felt the need to leave the organisation because such behaviour was felt to be condoned through lack of action.

I really do not feel it appropriate to name names and nor do i feel it necessary for a group of adults to effectivly bully a 13 year old child. it is not the childs fault his parents and leaders do not offer him the discipline and guidance he clearly requires.

MamazonAKAfatty - you haven't read the whole thread, have you? I did write a letter in a similar situation, but wouldn't agree with a group of parents getting together and signing what effectively amounts to a petition.
My original post is on Fri 29-Dec-06 10:36:28

No yuor right 40+ i hadn't read it all, just skimmed. sorry if i have offended you..i certainly hadn't intended to.

Oh no - you haven't offended me at all. I'm a very pragmatic type - I just thought you might be interested, that's all.

Just because his parents are well in with the local scout master, church and other social events in the local community should not give this child carte blanche to behave like a little shit and get away with it. The idea of some little rat bag showing my child pornographic sexually explicit images and knowing he'll probably get away with makes me want to smack him in the mouth never mind his parents. They must truly think the sun shines out of his heine bumper to put up with this sort of behaviour. Not only would i be giving his parents chapter and verse on their son's behaviour i would be reporting the incident with the sexually explicit images to the police.

TT