Is this morally correct??

[MissingMyBoy]

I consider myself to be a loving, caring parent of my beautiful 2 and a bit y/o DS. Unfortuneatly I have only been his permanant daddy as he was taken away by mey now ex-wife after only 8 weeks.

My ex only allowed me 2 hours per week initially and after a period of 8 months I eventually got a court order giving increasing contact up until the point in August 2006 where I started getting overnight staying contact on an alternating weekend basis. I now see my son for around 3 and a half full days a fortnight. I of course want more to the point of 50/50.

Part of the judges summing up a year and a half ago included that she did not understand why the case had come before her as there was not a shred of evidence against me as a father. She also commented that she could see how much I loved my DS.

I am now in a very happy and loving relationship with my new partner and we are expecing a child in May 2007. I found out last week that my ex is now intending on marrying again and taking my son some 4 hours or more drive away to a remote location in the East of the country.

I really cannot believe that she can have so little thought for my DS in removing him not only form me but also his maternal grandparents who looked house him for nearly a year following separation.

Directly before my last hearing on contact I had a job opportunity that would have made me significantly wealthier but taken me away from my son. I of course turned it down to be near him and have altered my working pattern to see him more frequently due to his young age.

I was just wondering what people out there thought of a mother placing her own happiness before the needs of her child adn their soon to be siblings.

I think without knowing a load more detail, it's very difficult to comment on a case like this. "a mother placing her own happiness before the needs of her child and their soon to be siblings" is a very loaded description of her actions.

I too moved away from my home town (London) when I split with the father of my children, simply because I could not afford to support a London mortgage on my own. It wasn't a question of placing my own happiness before the needs of my children, it was a question of weighing up what options were available to us as a family and how best I could give my children and myself a reasonable lifestyle given that I was going to be bringing them up by myself. Things like schools, quality of life, cost of living, support network, new start etc., could all be factors in your ex's decision to move. Does her new husband have family in that remote location? This could also be a factor.

Very few parents deliberately put their happiness before that of their children. They try and balance what they've got and make the best decision they can for the whole family, given limited choices. Her priority is to give herself, her children and her new husband the best life they can have. If that leaves you out in the cold, that's a very bad deal for you, but it doesn't necessarily mean that she is putting her needs above those of her child - she could well be thinking that she's giving her child a better chance of having a decent life than he's got where he lives at the moment.

I haven't any actual experience of this but my thoughts would be that by taking him 4 hours away it "tidies" things up a bit.

It is almost impossible for you to drive the 4 hours to collect him, have him with you for the 4 hours drive back to your house and then reurn him, another 4 hour car journey and then drive home.

It effectively cuts you out of his life. It is incredibly sad and I think that people do forget that a man is/has been a great Dad, they can't separate that from the fact that in their opinion you weren't a great partner (no blame being layed here just tends to be what women do)

Are you in a position where you can talk to your ex about it or would it result in an argument?

I really feel for you, there are enough men out there who are happy to relinquish responsibility for their children, it is lovely to see that you truly love and care for your son.

I disagree about 4 hours away being tantamount to cutting him out of your life. I moved from London to Devon (4 hours) when ds was 2 and I'd just left his father and we made it work. It was madness, the amount of driving we did (we used to meet at Gordano services every other weekend) and looking back I would NEVER do it again but I didn't move to Devon because it would be awkward, I moved because I wanted/needed to for other reasons. I certainly wasn't putting my happiness above my sons, not at all. And ds has seen his father every other weekend (and considerably more in the holidays) for the past 7 years, he's now 9. Ex dh and I now live an hour apart and it's a huge relief because it is much easier for ex dh to come here (it's amicable, almost always has been), which he does often. Looking back, I so wish I hadn't moved so far away, I do, but I don't think anyone could have persuaded me that it was a bad idea at the time.

I think 50/50 doesn't work in the main: I think children need to live in one place and feel that it's their home, so I don't think going for this will be the best thnig for your son and I think you should be considering what's the best thing for your son, not what suits you. And very, very often, what's best for a child is a happy mother. I appreciate that it's a long way and I do sympathise but I think you ought to find a way to make it work since you can't stop her and neither should you try imo. Sorry, I don't suppose this is what you wanted to hear.

Although you could send her here and I'll tell her how bloody hard it was being so far away from my ex given that he wanted to see our son! And I would also tell her that I wish I hadn't done it. We did drive half way each though, to soften the blow. And otoh if I hadn't, I wouldn't have met the man who's now my dh, blah blah.

i think you should both be in mediation or some counselling - somewhere you can both talk and communiacte your feelings properly and in detail without getting angry/upset etc...
there is a communication problem here, and the boy will be the one stuck in the middle if it is not resolved.
blunt. but true.

you and his mother are adults. you both need to behave like it (not that every adult does imo!)

It is interesting that in all of the above comments I have not really noted anything about my needs or my sons needs to maintain the level of contact he currently has with his genetic, loving, caring father.

Mother was financially independent, very well settled and Adam had an exceptionally good relationship with both of his parents.

Most divorced mothers I have spoken to who know me are appalled by what they are hearing is happening to my son and cannot believe my ex is doing this.

I have put my life on hold for two years, she could at least do the same.

At 5 years my DS could cope with less contact but longer periods away from mum and be happy.

This is just creating an additional problem for a two year old to deal with.

But none of the messages assume that you won't be maintaining the same amount of contact.

Do you have a car? If so, what's the problem? A four hour drive is a PITA, but it isn't enough of a PITA to stop you seeing your DS. (An eight hour drive would be.) You also have the option of negotiating more time with your DS to make up for the drive (if you and your ex are on negotiating terms) and if you were really determined, you could take it to court.

"I have put my life on hold for two years, she could at least do the same." Sorry, an unhappy, martyred mother is not good for a child imo. How you behave is not a determinent of how she should behave. There may be all sorts of reasons why it is simply not practical to delay a move - rising house prices being one. I know that if I had delayed my move out of London, I would probably not have been able to buy the house I now live in, because house-prices in this area have risen to such an extent that I would not be able to afford to buy my own house now (and they've risen beyond the average, so my London flat would not have risen to keep equal pace iyswim). Plus it could be things like jobs - that job might not come up again 3 years down the line. It's like having a baby; there is never a good time.

And I think most of us are concentrating on the need of the child to have a stable, happy family. What comes across from your posts is a huge amount of hostility to the mother of your child. That is not good for your child. IMO if parents are really antipathetic towards each other, that can be as damaging for a child as not seeing one or the other of the parents. There isn't enough evidence yet to say what's worse, and I think it probably depends on individuals and individual circumstances, but I'm pretty sure that no child "needs" to be torn between two parents who have so much antipathy for each other that they won't negotiate like adults to get the best deal they can for their child. 50 50 contact only works imo, where both parents live near each other and where they are on friendly enough terms to totally co-operate with each other. Forgive me if I'm over-interpreting, but that doesn't sound from your tone, as if that is the case in your situation.

I have been wholly co-operative since day one and have expended a huge amount of time and effort on my DS as I will continue to do. There is currently equilibrium and my ex can afford to buy a house for her needs outright and now has a husband to support her.

It is not me changing the status quo and unsettling my DS??

So what's the problem? Can you negotiate slightly longer contact times each time, to take into account the longer journey, or get her to drive 2 hours of it as WWW did?

Your DS is going to be "unsettled" throughout his life btw - there are always going to be unsettling changes in kids' lives, it's how we as adults deal with those changes that can determine how children respond to them.

I don't know whetehr it is morally correct or not, particularly without knowing you/your ex and the circumstances - much too complex a situation to be pronounced on in black and white on an anonymous site like this.

I have huge sympathy for your situation, your grief and anger at having your time with your son reduced by the split is obvious nd very understandable. My parents split when I was four and I remember very well the hurt and rage on both sides, not to mention my own.

However, morally correct or not, your ex-wife is within her legal rights to live wherever she chooses to, and as long as she has residency of your son you have no control over where she takes him. If changes need to be made to enable you to be nearer to him, you will have to make them - she cannot be forced to. If you can, I think you need to stop expending your energy raging about how unfair it is and concentrate on how you are going to facilitate the best possible arrangements for your son as you can in the circumstances. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but I don't know what else you can practically do - you can't tell her where to live.

It is an 8 hour drive though isn't it? I presume you don't mean a 4 hour round trip if you were to go and collect him and take him back to yours. Even if it's only 4 hours that is a long journey for a 2 year old.

Good on you for pursuing the court order and making sure you continue to be part of his life. If you come across as hostile towards your x (and you don't to me) then I really can't blame you. I would feel hostile towards someone who only allowed my to see my 8 week old baby for 2 hours. For me that's unimaginable.

Has she said why she's moving?

Four hours away is not the end of the world though, is it? We're not talking Australia here, are we? Please don't think I'm being unsympathetic, because I'm really not, but there's an awful lot of anger and bitterness in your posts which cannot be healthy for you, your relationship with your ex or your son.

You assert she's 'placing her own happiness before the needs of her child' - is this really the case? It sounds as if she's just getting on with things - as you are. After all, you have a new partner and a baby on the way, but you don't appear to imagine that this change in the status quo might be in any way disruptive for your ds - only what your ex is doing.

I do genuinely understand that this is a far from ideal situation, but I think, as Greeny says, you need to start looking at the ways you can facilitate the relationship instead of wallowing in the unfairness of it all. Change is inevitable but if you both behave like the loving parents you are then you can find a way to negotiate something that suits all three of you.

I think you're placing too much emphasis on how often you get to see your son. I'm a single mother with a 4 year old DS and my ex-p has as much contact as is appropriate for all of us. It's no-where near the 50/50 mark though, as DS needs a main home (which is with me) and he enjoys regular visits with his father (1 night a week and every other weekend).

I live very close to DS father but I would consider moving out of the area if it would benefit me or DS. I wouldn't be put out if ex-p decided to move away because it would be beneficial to him either. It's not ideal but it's natural that when famiies seperate changes are inevitable and it's just common sense to adjust to them and make your new circumstances work.

I don't think your DS's mother is placing her own happiness before that of your DS's. I don't know the reasons for the move, but if you all value the contact you have with your DS and continue to work together then surely it will work.

Am I the only one that thinks a 4 hours is a long way away when you're talking about wanting to be a full part of your child's life? It will no longer be a case of pick your child up for, say, a day's contact and return at bedtime - if that's what happens at the moment. Most of the contact will be in the car or will need to be changed so you get a whole weekend. How is she envisaging contact working then MMB?

For me, the reasonableness or this or otherwise would depend on whether she has just said "this is happening, tough luck" or "I have a really good opportunity, but I'm afraid it means we'll be further away but I want it to affect his relationship with you and his grandparents as little as possible".

Thanks Frosty and Santa for appreciating my side of things.

I know there is nothing I can do - but I have found happiness in a place I thought I would be staying and where all my partner's parents and my entire ex's family live.

There is a lot more to the history than I need to post on this site and all of your views are welcomed.

My upset (not bitter or angry and am dealing with it in a logical and rational fashion) coems from the fact that my ex announces this in a cold and single sided letter at a time when everything was working extremely well.

I have made a lot of sacrifices to be in my son's life - she would not appear willing to do the same to keep me in it. She moved to Scotland initially to be with me, she couldn't cope so I moved with her down to England. Now she is moving away from her family when only 5 years ago she could not cope without them.

I will have a new borne child to look after at the time she is moving - I cannot drive up and down the country to see my DS I have Ft work commitments and a new child to look after. She does not work has plenty of cash and has no other family responsibilities

MMB I have to commend you for your committment to your DS - I don't mean to be patronising but their are so many fathers out there who couldn't give 2 sh*ts. My point of view is purely that - yes it's unfair, but not necessarily selfish on your DS's mother's part or unworkable.

*there too many drinks tonight.

Ok. I do think 4 hours is a long way. Not the end of the earth, no. but far enough to prohibit casual visits for sure. Is a total PITA. Esp if you have to do all the driving.

And it doesn?t sound like shes being very ?fair?. And telling you about this move in a letter with no discussion undoubtedly seems cold and callous.

But. This is not about sides, as you put it. This is not about whats fair and what isn?t for the adults involved. And you cannot control the behaviour of another, only your own and you reactions to it.

So for the sake of your boy, who no doubt will be very upset at missing his dad, you need to try to get lines of communication functioning better. You say you?ve tried, well its worth it to keep trying imo.

And no, I havnt commented on how great you are to love your boy, b/c I don?t think that?s remarkable. I think its fantastic, don?t get me wrong, but imo, its parents who don?t feel a great love, responsibility and respect for their children who are weird.

And I havnt commented on the rights, wrongs, personalities of those involved b/c I don?t know them. As you say, theres a lot more history involved than is here on this thread.

I think your position is very hard and painful. But you are not powerless to improve it.

I think in most cases it is best for a child to have as much contact with both parents as possible. don't give up even though this must be tough for you. The best thing is to get a formal agreement for times for access for you that are non-negotiable. Perhaps, you get every second weekend so you get as much time as you can with him. Soon, he will be older and able to come for long periods of time. He will know over time all the sacrifices you have made to be his dad. It is best ofr him to let go of your anger and get on with making the situation work to maximize your time with him. Finding out by letter would be tough. It must have really hurt.

I completely sympathise with you, my parents divorced, my father moved to another country in Europe and more or less forgot about us. After a couple of years we saw him once a year - my first thought on each birthday was to wonder if he'd remember that year. I tell you this because to let you know just how strongly I feel about fathers maintaining contact with their children.

However I don't understand what you stand to gain by us all agreeing that you ex is putting her needs first. It does sound like it's all going to be very hard for you and your partner, but you are clearly comitted to your ds and ultimately your relationship with him will continue. I don't think anyone will openly say she is in the wrong because we don't know the full story.

Thanks Frosty for noticing that it is an eight hour round trip.

Considering I have quality contact from 9am on a saturday until 5pm on a Sunday at present (excluding travel) and can take my son to interestign places - my ex is proposing that I leave my house at around 3am to collect him at eight from her, get back up north for around 1pm after being in the car for 8 hours or so plus breaks and be expected to have meaningful contact with my sun up for around 7 hours befored getting him to bed. I would then get around 4 hours in the morning before having to repeat a 8 hour round trp - oh and then prepare myself for work the next week. And at the time all of this would be happening I have a new borne child and a partner to consider.

Ex's letter basically said (yes I am paraphasing but no I am not angry or bitter, just upset) getting married, moving away, your contact is halfed unless you do something about it - this accurately reflects the tone of the letter.

To the people who have commented about my anger and bitterness - i disagree - I am hurt - very hurt.

Can any of you say hand on your heart if a relationship you had nurtured for all of your child's life was now in jeopardy that you would be happy about it, or wouldn't hurt as much as I am doing?

For your information my response to mother actually congratulates her on her new life and wishes her a merry Christmas - and no this is not done in a sarcastic fashion.

I wanted her to move on in her life - just not move away.

Fair enough MMB, your tone did sound very angry and I think what defined my response to it was my gut feel that you were asking the wrong question. No it's not morally right, but lots of things in life aren't, we have to live with them and make them work the best we can anyway. The question is, how can we make it work. In the old days, they used to give custody of the children and alimony to the "innocent" party in the divorce, it was a moral approach but unfortunately it hurt the children. I think it's quite right that they don't do the moral approach now, they do the welfare of the child approach.

I think you should point out (perhaps in a letter, where any anger/ resentment can be edited out and where it won't lead to an argument) the difficulties of this and suggest a different routine. What about collecting the child on a Friday evening for example? Even while he's asleep, he can sleep in the car on the way to yours. If you keep the tone of your letter friendly and positive (in a let's work together on this to make it work for both of us) a)she's more likely to respond positively to it and b) you have it as evidence if needed in the future (hopefully not but you never know).

And as others have said, he will get older, it will be possible for him to spend longer periods of time with you, you've just got to hang on in there and make sure you do your utmost to make this stage of it work. It won't last forever and if you invest in making it work now (however unfair you feel it is that you have to work so much harder at it than your ex), it's much more likely to work much better further down the line.

I do get that it's a PITA, I really do. And like I said, I wish I HADN'T moved so far away from my ex dh when I did, I really do. We are all much, much happier now we're an hour away from my ex dh. I agree with Caligula about your asking the wrong question - we're not unsympathetic but that phrasing meant you maybe didnt' get the constructive advice you were (maybe) looking for.

Can you move nearer her? Do you think she'll stay moved or be drawn back? Where are her family and where is her main support? I think all these things will matter, as will schools once your ds is older. It's impossible to move about in quite the same way once you have a school age child.

Not in your situation or anything....my mum was a single mum though, saying that both my dad and my sisters dads were a bit rubbish, to say the least....but I know when she remarried all our lifes got better. Partly because my mum was happier and a better mum for it, partly financially it was all a bit easier....!
I suppose, what I am saying is, you describe it as if your ex is doing this out of vndictiveness....but it is really (you will know better then me, I can only go by the posts, iykwim)!
I think it's fab you are so commited, as sadly, as much as all dads should be, not all are, and the grow of single mums are, especially after their expartners found new love and build a new family a bit in the lurge and so are the Kids from that relationship...could it be, that she trys to protect herself and your child from that, by being to dependent on you?
I really think you need to talk, wihtout bitterness, just honestly, if that is possible!

I think 'morally correct' was a very loaded phrase. I understand that you are sad, of course. But you can't control your ex and where she chooses to live. All you can do is make the effort to stay on good terms with her for the sake of your son. And do your level best to maintain contact with him, however logistically difficult it is.

FWIW my mother, sister and I moved about three hours away from my father a couple of years after their divorce for my mother's job. It worked. Obviously we only saw him at weekends but we kept our relationship going (although there were other difficulties to do with us as individuals, not geography). Today I'd say all of us daughters were close to our dad so don't lose heart.