Is this morally correct??

[MissingMyBoy]

I consider myself to be a loving, caring parent of my beautiful 2 and a bit y/o DS. Unfortuneatly I have only been his permanant daddy as he was taken away by mey now ex-wife after only 8 weeks.

My ex only allowed me 2 hours per week initially and after a period of 8 months I eventually got a court order giving increasing contact up until the point in August 2006 where I started getting overnight staying contact on an alternating weekend basis. I now see my son for around 3 and a half full days a fortnight. I of course want more to the point of 50/50.

Part of the judges summing up a year and a half ago included that she did not understand why the case had come before her as there was not a shred of evidence against me as a father. She also commented that she could see how much I loved my DS.

I am now in a very happy and loving relationship with my new partner and we are expecing a child in May 2007. I found out last week that my ex is now intending on marrying again and taking my son some 4 hours or more drive away to a remote location in the East of the country.

I really cannot believe that she can have so little thought for my DS in removing him not only form me but also his maternal grandparents who looked house him for nearly a year following separation.

Directly before my last hearing on contact I had a job opportunity that would have made me significantly wealthier but taken me away from my son. I of course turned it down to be near him and have altered my working pattern to see him more frequently due to his young age.

I was just wondering what people out there thought of a mother placing her own happiness before the needs of her child adn their soon to be siblings.

Many thanks for the further posts all advice is most welcomed.

The problem I have with the situation is I am from Scotland my ex dw is from the area I live in at present (as is nearly all of her family). My family remain in Scotland where I cannot get a lot of time to see my Dad, who at 75 years old and with Prostate Cancer and having just falling out of the attic and I worry about all the time, or my brother and his wife and DS and DD.

As I mentioned, My new partners family is all from around the area we are in now.

It would never be a rational decision when I have a new family to uproot my partner and child to be from everything they know, for me to leave a well paying and secure job in a metropolitan area to go to the sticks where there would be nothing for my new family.

My ex did not cope well when she move to scotland to be with me as she became very homesick - this is only 5 years ago. So I left everything to move down here where I have no blood relatives.

I was wholly ostrecised from her family following a separation which left me with no-one apart from my 8 week old DS. I would estimate that 75% of men in my situation would have left and returned home. I didn't, I stayed here for my son.

I have genuine fears that she is doing this for all of the wrong reasons. Unfortunately for my ex our DS is the only child she could have due to a medical condition, so I fully appreciate that she would wish our DS exclusively - but that is not in the interests of our DS, neither is creating a difficult situation to maintain contact with his half brother or sister, his dad and his extended paternal family who he has only seen on the odd occassion is over two years.

A good example of her behaviour is that my dad came down to see me following separation (he is one of the most decent men I know) and was here for 3 days. I asked her family if they could arrange some time for him to see my DS - they didn't. MY ex's parents have 10 grandchildren - my own mother has passed away and my DS is my dad's only blood grandchild (my brothers children are adopted).

While you may argue that this followed close to separation and may be understandable due to tensions involved, just last August when I started getting my DS overnight my dad had arranged a family holiday with himself, my brother and family and me my new partner and my DS. My ex was aware of this 5 months before it happened and tried to change the date a fortnight before we were due to go.

I have never seen my DS at Christmas or her birthday and really, what kind of mother 2 weeks before Christmas hands their child's father a letter telling him that she is moving 160 miles away. It coudl so easily have waited until the New Year.

I honestly am not the one that is angry and bitter in all of this but I can see this being a very difficult problem to resolve. I do not know her new partners status but if he does not have children it is them that should be considering to move to this area. That is what I would do in that situation

All of your posts are welcomed but sometimes it is easy to criticise one party when you don't know the other.

ok i know this isnt a real alternative ,but how about suggesting you both invest in a web cam and then you could speak to your son every day and he could 'see' you . Perhaps you could read him a story before bedtime or something along those lines ,i know it doesnt make up for direct contact but it might help on a short term basis whilst you reorganise the direct contact issue? its just a thought

MMB - the more you post, the clearer the picture becomes.

and the more i feel for you, tbh.

before my current relationship i never would have believed a person could behave in quite the way your xw seems to.... but my dps xw is at least as difficult, selfish and rotten. and no matter how 'used to it' i become, i am still shocked by her attitude and behaviour....but thats my situation and i digress.

you do deserve support and understanding and i hope you find that here - agree the op was unfortunately worded... but you havnt flounced or stropped, youve just explained better. i think thats admirable.

is there any way you can get her to agree to do one of the journeys, at least? my dp does all the driving for his alternate w/ends with his older son, and that is not really on. asking you to make two 8hour drives a fortnight, esp when you have another baby to consider too... shes being unreasonble, to say the least. i doubt asking her to do it from the goodness of her heart will work, but is there any way you can sort of manipulate the conversation around that way, so that to say no she would be clearly being difficult beyond reason? i dont know, you know her, so you prob know the best way to communicate with her...

Every other weekend my DH leaves me and our DD to travel 5 hrs (one way) to see his kids, from first marriage, he stays 2 nights away then travels 5 hours home sunday evening. Not it isn't ideal for anyone but contact can be maintained, if your partner is supportive.

Have read this with interest and agree that really your question is pointless, I'm afraid....whether it's morally correct or not is neither here nor there, unfortunately.

You have to forget whether it's morally correct. Come at it purely from your DS' point of view, he won't look back and think "hmm, was mummy's decision there a little on the morally incorrect side?" He just wants and needs his mum AND his dad and it's just a case of working out a practical way for you to continue to have good contact with him so that he looks back on a childhood which includes a loving, committed dad.....

It's one of the hardest things with a split family that one side cannot control what the other side does and it can drive people (understandably) mad. But you just have to label it "adult issues", put it in a box, put the box in the attic, and get on with working out how you can be with ds in light of whatever the current situation is.

I agree, can you pick him up on a Friday so he can sleep in the car and you get all of saturday with him?

I think Sunnysideup's comment is very wise.

Good luck maintaining your relationship with your son, MissingMyBoy.

Also MMB somethign else occurred to me about the abrupt letter she wrote; it could be that she's actually feeling guilty about being unreasonable so she's gone on the attack. (People behave very oddly and sometimes don't always understand their own behaviour until a few years later where break ups are concerned.)

I'm not suggesting this to absolve her, but the more empathy you can have for her and the more charitable motives you can impute to her (however much you want to scream about her), the more constructive you can be in your responses to her actions. (That old thing of you can't control someone else's behaviour but you can control your response to it. And the more consistently decent your response is, unless your xw is a complete lunatic, the better her behaviour will become.)

ratclare - much as I would like indirect contact my DS would not sit at a computer screen for 2 minutes as he is into everything at the moment - it is a really good suggestion for extending contact further down the line - for example when he is older I could buy him a mobile phone and talk to him. Hadn't thought of that - so thanks.

Nappies - many thanks for the support. My xw's starting point is too low for my liking and does not consider my feelings or the needs of my son to continue a good relationship with his daddy. Knowing my xw the only way she will commit to any of the travelling is if a court orders it, unless this time she has a sensible solicitor that puts the needs of both new families first.

I have thoughts on what I would settle for - I have a desk job at in the public sector, so things like getting two and a half days a fortnight off work to extend the contact until my ds starts school or build up extra hours during the week to get more holidays are all viable alternative. My xw has stated she wants an amicable situation to be reached but has started off low, so I must aim high to hopefully arrive in the middle with what is best for ds.

Las - I sympathise with your situation. If it works for you then I am happy, it is just a pity your dp cannot get xw to do the travel up so the kids can stay with you. Even though my dp would support me, I do not see why my new family life should be disrupted when my xw can sit and do what she wants - it is her decision to move, she should share the responsibility of the situation she is creating - cannot have your cake and eat it!! I will compromise but I am not a doormat and nor I should be since I hold a decree absolut now

Sunny you are spot on - i guess my subject line was a bit misguided. Due to his age and the fact children should not spend more than 2 hours in a car seat at a time, allowing him to sleep in the car would not be an option as it would not be in his best interests. Having investigated, xw and I both live close enough to rail stations, so if she does not work there would be the opportunity before my ds starts school for my xw to travel up mid week and for me to travel down on a sunday evening to make sure my ds bed routines are not disturbed. Both parents get to enjoy quality travel time and what little boy doesn't like being on a train!! And besides when he is older could be used for homework etc.

Again many thanks for all of your posts, none of them have convinced me that I am doing anything wrong which is always good to hear.

MMB, good luck with the new baby btw. And it's good to hear your commitment to your ds. Just wanted to say, never forget to look at it through your ds eyes; in my experience, sadly, exes CAN sit and do nothing in the way of facilitating contact, having moved away and thus made contact much more difficult; I just hope if this happens with you that it never wears down your commitment to seeing your ds, remember he doesn't care if his mum is taking an equal part in making contact possible or not, or whether all the onus is unfairly coming down on you, and he doesn't care if this makes your new family life difficult.....again all this is adult stuff and I do hope you can continue to keep it in that mental 'attic'.........good luck!

ditto everything sunnysideup has said

and well done for the train idea! i like that...

hope you, ds and your 'new' family have many more happy times to come...

MMB I do sympathise but this morally wrong thing or not moving works both ways.

to be honest, whether ur exW is right or wrong to move, do you really want her driving around in the dark by herself? I know WWW says she did it but I wouldnt fancy doing it so I dont. exH has to come & pick kids up & drive them to his house. Cos of their young age (both under 5) and distance, he has them to stay once a month & comes here for the day the other fortnight - to be homest, he seems happy with that & my kids certainly are.

my exh moved 3hrs away from the family home - HIS choice - do I tell him he cant see the kids? no.....but means he doesnt see them as often - his choice by the way - I have told him he can come up here every weekend if he wants...he doesnt

maybe its harder for you cos you have chosen to stay nearer but agree that happy mummy means happy child

unless you live in a v dangerous area, not sure why it being dark should stop a grown woman 'driving around'... she has headlights, surely?

what I meant was driving long distances late at night in the dark
sorry if you think thats ok but I wouldnt fancy it really especially with my car
may sound pathetic but there we are

maybe Im looking at it personally as I dont see why I should drive long distances when my exH was the one who a)had the affair b)left c) moved 3 hrs away

This is exactly what I mean about adult stuff getting in the way....

Mistletoe, it is highly unfair that your ex had an affair, left, then decided to move away.

However if you want your child to have contact with their dad then that's the stuff you have to forget. You simply have to concentrate on the practilalities of getting the contact organised. Yes it's your ex's responsibility too! But my point is even if he seems to be making it more difficult, that's still ADULT STUFF and nothing to do with whether your child benefits from seeing their dad.

It is hard and is enough to make anyone bitter! And it's making that distinction between the adult stuff and what's good for the child that's SO hard.

Lots of stuff here. Miggins we know that your ex has behaved appallingly and you have had to be very strong to get through it. But there is a difference here - mmb seems rather more interested in seeing his DS than your ex has been in the past. Hope that my putting it so bluntly is not upsetting.

Personally I do not see anything wrong with driving children around on my own at night. I have done it many times with my two who are 5 and 2. Surely the woman has a mobile.

I think the train idea is a good one for sometimes but I do think that 8 hours on a train on a regular basis is going to drag for a 2yo. Also I thought the 2 hour in a car seat rule was for babies not toddlers. I think the best bet would be for mmb to work flexi, finish early on a Friday, go and collect DS who would be in his pjs, and bring him back. Then for his ex to do the reverse on a Sunday. Alternatively you could do the meeting half way thing that WWW did. But WWW I wonder if maybe you were more reasonable than mmb's ex.

MMB, have read this with interest and am glad that you feel supported and have had some really useful situations.

I just wanted to add that a friend of mine and her ex have a 50/50 situation with one of their daughters, who is 14. I know this is much older than your little boy, but perhaps the age would make her a little more able to cope; the problem is, the inconsistency is very difficult - even though both parents live close enough together for her to attend the same school, have contact with same friends and family etc, her sense of identity and self-esteem have clearly suffered and her behaviour is dreadful as a result.

Am not telling you this to put you off, just to warn you that 50/50 may not be the right answer. I certainly hope that you get to see your son more often - you say above that you're not angry and bitter, but your earlier posts do read a bit that way - I think the idea of counselling to help you come to terms with the way you've been treated and the sense of loss you have for missing so much of your son's childhood is a good one and/or mediation with your ex so that she gets a better idea of where you're coming from (and hear the pain you clearly feel about the situation with your father and your son) and you can try and see the motives behind her move.

I agree, the timing sucks for you, but I hope that you can come up with a "suitable" alternative and ensure that your little boy has a lovely Chrimbo with both parents relatively close together.

actually, thats a point. 2 of my siblings and i were on a 50/50 arrangement after our 'rents broke up... and i was all over the place. to be fair, it was a fairly complicated arrangement of 2 days here, 3 days there sort of thing (also stayed close so we could just go from one house to school, and then home to other house on 'changeover' days) but it took me 2 years (not even exaggerating, wish i was) to even realise there was a system! i thought it was totally ad hoc! was forever going home to the wrong house and having to trek across the borough to other house just in time for dinner...

but thats a total digression.

point is, think carefully about 50/50 arrangements and who they really suit. (fwiw - we all wanted to do it that way b/c we missed the other parent too much after a few days... just that in reality, and retrospect, it was too much upheaval all the time)

How sad for you.
I'm horrified to read that some people think that a 4hr drive is acceptable in order to visit a much loved and missed child. And to say 'It's not Australia is it ?' is heartless and insensitive in my opinion.
For gods sake, how would you feel if you had limited access to your child/ren and on top of that had to drive a bloody long way to see them.
My parents and brother (& family) all live 4hrs drive away and it's a bloody long way. I miss them all terribly and to think that my dd could be that far away would break my heart.
It's the practicalities too.
Presumeably it's an 8 hour round trip or a 'stay somewhere' scenario during the visit.
I know someone who got divorced and although his ex wife didn't move away, she made life extremely difficult for him as regards access etc. AND, it was all done to hurt him. I'll probably get slated for this, and I'm not saying your ex is an example, BUT there are a lot of women who go out of their way to hurt their ex's by using a child as a bargaining tool or pawn. Sad but true.

Staying civil and talking is very important for your future relationship with your boy. Although it's a very sad and difficult situation if your ex is adamant in moving away, I'm afraid she is calling the shots as the main carer and so to some extent you have to go along with her decision.

A webcam will go some way to feeling closer to your boy, a great suggestion. Write him letters and photocopy them as in years to come you can show him if his mum chooses not to pass them on (I know that this happens).
I wish you all the best, a child is precious, and you sound a fantastic dad so I hope it all works out for you all. Good Luck !

I feel desperately sorry for you and your child- I think you should consider applying to the court for a specific issue order. The court would consider whether the move is in the child's best interests and if neccessary make an order preventing mum from taking the child away.

It's a drastic move and I don't know the full background but she sounds as though she's taking the piss.

I'd like to see the reaction of some of the posters if someone gaily informed them in letter that their child was to be moved way. It's not just the travelling involved, it's the change of school, routine, friends, disruption of family life etc. not to mention the potential loss of opportunity to bond with sibling.

I do wonder why she hates you so much, though, and I also wonder why her family does. Agree that 50/50 care is bad for child.

Message withdrawn

"there are a lot of women who go out of their way to hurt their ex's by using a child as a bargaining tool or pawn. Sad but true."

And there are a lot of men who go out of their way to hurt their ex's by using a child as a bargaining tool or pawn. Sad but true.

Neither of those are particularly helpful generalisations, but I couldn't resist the urge to balance that statement.

MMB, i feel for you. there's been some good advice here and hope it's been helpful.

we currently live a 4 hour round trip from dh's other kids. his exgf is witholding access based on money. we regularly get instructions that if we pay more we can see them.

so far we haven't seen them since mid-october.

we consulted a family law solicitor and have sent a letter making some proposals and asking to go to mediation. we will see how that is received..........

the solicitor told us that we could go to court and would probably get a judgement in our favour. it is "illegal" to withold access based on financial arrangements.

however, if the ex wants to be obstructive then she will. it won't matter how often we go to court there isn't a great deal a judge can do. even if she were in constant breach it's highly unlikely the ultimate of a custodial sentence would be given to the resident parent.

it breaks our hearts, my dh has suffered mentally due to this and is on ADs.

you're not alone in wanting to be a good parent but being at the mercy of your ex.

at least she isn't witholding access. it's a nightmare situation for you, wish i could offer some useful advice.

really hope you work something out and good luck with the impending birth.

Caroligua - My comments were from my own experience with family and friends. I'm sure there are indeed men of the same mind set of 'getting back' at ex's but that wasn't my point on this particular thread and I didn't imply that it was purely women who conducted themseves this way.
I wasn't generalising, my comments have been my observations from the situations that I have been close to.

Fair enough Tillyboo, but our own experiences are not necessarily a good guide to what is happening in a wider context. (For example I wouldn't say my experience is all that typical, so wouldn't extrapolate any conclusions from it, which could be applied to other people's cases, iyswim.)

It does tend to be women who use the child as a bargaining tool or pawn because in the main they can - they are generally the ones who have the children living with them.

It would probably be the same if children generally stayed with their fathers after a separation.

The sad truth is that a lot of couples hate each other so much that they will use whatever weapon at their disposal to hurt the other. What better weapon than the kids?