stopping son from coming on weekend family trip

[ClarkL]

So my son has a lot of behavioral issues, nothing like ADHD, simply a pain in the rear end. Hes 11, on report at school, hes manipulative, hurts people and quite honestly is horrible. I am working hard with the school to turn this around, we have a trip to Edinburgh this weekend and he was told if he doesn't behave he isn't going. A friend has volunteered to have him. We had 2 good days last week, the calm before the storm! This weekend was bad, kicking his step Dad, screaming and shouting over homework and angry at me for talking to the neighbor on the phone for half an hour. SO I explained final warning, his teacher has said final warning, yesterday he apologized. not great behavior last night but no fights. Today I get a call from the school to say he's bullying another child and grabbed him by his neck and pushed him. I don't want him to go this weekend, his sister is very down from his bullying of her and becoming withdrawn I cant think of anything worse than him kicking off and ruining this trip...but is it really terrible to stop him from coming? Will I scare him for life and give him more reasons to be aggressive or may it be the kick he needs to realize being part of a family actually is conditional and you do not behave the way he is??

Another phone call, today he was being poked with a stick at the bus stop so took the stick and smacked the kid across the head with it, is it too early to have that class of wine??

My niece has been finally diagnosed as being autistic and far more telling PDA - her behaviour does sound similar to your son's in many ways. The parenting she responds to is so different to the usual - an that's the key finding out what your ds responds to as the "usual" or "typical" styles don't.

I still think I would follow through and not take him though as it does strengthen that you mean what you say. Which then is a positive enforcement of when you say "I love you, no matter how you behave", "I want to help you" and everything else that he does need.

so he was provoked/is being bullied?

i do think you need some one on one time with his sisters, give her a chance to express herself. but you need to address his deep rooted anger issues and that isnt just by punishing. is there a pupil referral unit who can provide outreach to the school? they would look into self esteem issues and the root causes not just the punishment.

I think saying he is being bullied is not quite right, he will be friends with someone, mess around play fight call each other names etc then the next day a child will do exactly the same and he'll flip. At his last school the kids stopped playing with him because they never knew if he'd play nicely or not.
I appreciate some kids are targets and i'd say he is a target because of how he reacts, they will pretty much always get a reaction from him.
The school got involved as it was while waiting at the bus stop and the child arrived needing to see a nurse and they investigated

And what have they done about your child being attacked at a bus stop?

Maryz I don't know what to believe anymore.
He has had the same up bringing as his sister
They've had the same rubbish hand dealt to them
yet he acts this way and she doesn't.

He is a minature version of his Dad, cant handle things so reacts with violence, nothing is his fault, people 'make' him do things. I left his Dad when he was 18 months old and he does not know about his Dads violence towards me. I am still trying to work out the nature V nurture argument.

I have however told work I'm not working today and I'm reading the explosive child, work have told me to take the rest of the week off - I love my bosses.

ClarkL my heart goes out to you. My dd has suffered from her brother's issues. And as you describe, both dc's went through the same shit dad and trauma, but they reacted in very different ways. I have spent a lot of money (that I don't have) on private therapy for dd to help her cope with her dad and her ds (and my exhaustion from dealing with both of them). I have had to stop working at my successful career so that I can care for my children full time. I spent much of this time reading and researching my ds' illnesses (he has a genetic illness as well) and learning what both children need to be stable and happy and successful. I read every book everyone suggested to me and found something useful in every single one of them. I listened to every suggestion every parent, teacher and medical professional gave me. I taught myself a lot of biology, medicine and mental health. And their dad fought me every step of the way. But 4 years down the line, we are in a much better place (ds is stable and dd is understanding) and all that work was absolutely worth it. And please remember that you won't necessarily get black and white answers and that they may change over time as people learn new things. (My ds' genetic disease was not diagnosable as recently as 10 years ago because they didn't have the science or techniques.) I wish you lots of strength in getting the answers you need.

Going back to your original question. I would probably take your ds, but make sure to arrange a separate trip for just you and dd that is posed as being "special time" for you two and not a punishment for your ds.

You made the threat. Now you have to carry through. I think its appropriate though. Maybe you can suggest that you will take him away on his own (without his sister) after Xmas if he behaves over the Xmas period.

On is a student nurse, loving and people-pleasing and generally a great kid. One is an unhappy, resentful school dropout, who has been using drugs for years as a way of self-medicating to manage his misery.

Maryz, are you concerned that your dd's people pleasing personality - which may well have developed as a coping strategy to placate her brother - could set her up badly in future? Does she have coping methods for potentially abusive situations in future relationships?

I'm a little concerned that the message the op's DD will receive is that it's her responsibility to avoid triggering her brother, that her brother isn't responsible for his actions and that if/when he assaults her she will have no right of redress because 'punishment doesn't work'. Projecting forward she could easily apply this message within a relationship, something which would leave her very vulnerable.

How have you addressed this with you DD if you don't mind me asking?

I agree with everything that Maryz said. And I think that Andro has a very important point. I have tried very hard to not place the burden on dd that it's solely her responsibility to avoid triggering her brother. We have lots of conversations about it and I have made a point of acknowledging that it sucks to have a brother with issues, but that it's important to not let that define her existence (now I just have to teach myself the same thing). I have also insisted that she gets counseling to help with it (she was reluctant, but is doing it and finding it helpful, so continuing).

I agree with Maryz in that, it's not the type of advice you would give to a "normal" family. Though I am beginning to think that most families could benefit from much of the advice I have been given over the years on dealing with my mentally ill ds and the family interactions. The situations are not as extreme in a "normal" family, but they are still there in many ways, because it's part of the human condition.

The whole situation sounds horrible Maryz!

I wish your DD all the best and I really hope she manages to reach a healthy place.

I know some of the issues adoptees face, I have 2 adopted dc of my own and one of them has been in therapy for over 5 years to manage his issues.

My ds has PTSD so we've has our own challenges with his episodes, not always aided by DD being anything but a people pleaser (diva worthy of coven garden has sometimes been more accurate!).

I always find your posts interesting to read Maryz, as we are going through similar.

Ds "gets away" with swearing, because we can't stop him. We tell the others off because they can help it, and as such we have higher behavioural expectations of them, but at the moment it's hard for them to see that this is anything other than favouritism.
They also see dh and I spending so much time with ds2, and less with them, but in reality the time we spend with ds2 is often firefighting, managing him and his outbursts rather than spending quality time. The time we spend with the others is usually more meaningful, and more likely to make happy memories.

Sofia, the article (published in 1999) you linked to specifically states that no specific gene has been identified and that they hope that 'over the next few years bipolar susceptibility genes will be identified'. I do not believe that any have been yet.

In the field of mental health, bipolar is not generally referred to as a 'genetic illness/condition' (despite how things may be phrased in scientific papers). Even if there is found to be a genetic element to it, viewing it as a 'genetic illness' discounts the impact that the environment/the person's experience is having on the person. It can also mean that people look to medication as a first resort rather than looking at coming to an understanding of how the person has come to that place, and what psychological/family interventions could help.

Check out Lucy Johnstone's writings for more info on this perspective.

I believe my patients benefit from this approach where they are able to take control and put into place strategies that help them to manage the way they think/feel rather than thinking of bipolar as a lifelong genetic condition that they are stuck with if that makes sense.

Anyway, I agree with other posters encouraging the OP to go back to GP and get a referral to CAMHS. Just because your son behaves well in the 10 minute appointment with GP does not mean that they should ignore the issues you are telling them about.

you are reinforcing negative behaviour with the successive demands and punishments. He is integrating that he is bad and not good enuf for his family. If your dd is the good one ,he will resent and envy her . Minute goals must be set and rewarded as much as possible ,very gradually increasing the difficulty of winning the reward. Question is what wd he want to earn? One on one time with you ? time on an electronic devise? etc.Your goal is to reward not punish and if you have made a threat-which shd never be done- then withdraw it. Admit you have made a mistake and that you are sorry you made the threat and ask him to remind you not to threaten again. In fact repeat as often as possible that we all make mistakes all the time and that none of us is perfect but we are still loved and accepted by our family and friends. Turn this around asap as you are losing your son's love and trust. Get help to do all of this or some other version of positive parenting.