Awful, awful, impossible toddler. Is this normal? Help

[JamesBob]

This is my third child which I'm ashamed to admit, as I'm in real difficulties with him and don't know if his behaviour is normal or not.

I think I recall ds1 being the same to an extent but it is truly appalling at the moment.

He is SO determined to do what he wants, and will scream and roar when I have to say no (for example lying down in the road, or wanting to unlock the front door himself and someone's waiting outside, and he won't let me do it, though he takes a long time)

It is embarrassing as we need to do certain things like getting in the car to go to school and he just refuses point blank. He will writhe and scream and hit me and so on. People are staring

I try and stay calm, which I normally manage (though not always, but usually I do) and I'm normally a responsive parent, as in co sleeping, listening to him, feeding on demand, sort of thing. I tend to shout at the older ones sometimes but make allowances for tinies

Anyway it has been particularly terrible for about two weeks now and finally my mother has said she can't cope with him (she might take him out once or maybe twice a week for an hour or two). She says it's too dangerous and she thinks there is something wrong with him though she has difficulty being anything but gentle, or when it makes her cross, or she has to be firm. She doesn't want him to dislike her.

I am dreading every day with him. Especially nything involving going out on foot or in the car.

He is 2y 9m.

My Mum has upset me by saying she thinks he isn't normal. Can anyone smpathise or reassure me at all? I think it is perhaps a testosterone surge or something. He seems genuinely upset and miserable when his plans are denied. Like it's a physical pain to him?

I don't know. Just after some thoughts I suppose. Thanks if you got this far.

Well, he sounds fairly normal to me. At the high end of difficult behaviour, if you like, but not out of the normal range.
What is he like when things are going well? Or when he's playing quietly by himself? Or at nursery?

Of course he won't dislike your mother if she's firm with him! The opposite, in fact.

Some things we try to do ( I work in Early Years ) is offer choices that we want them to make. Such as
Do you want to wear your red coat or your blue one?
Rather than
DO you want to wear your coat?

So:
Do you want to take Spider-Man or Buzzlightyear in the car?

Also, for very confrontational children, take the personal aspect out of your requests.
So, don't say please put your socks on.
Don't say help me by putting your own socks on.
Don't say shall we get your socks on.

Instead say, Those socks need putting on.
Then leave him to it unless he asks for help.
It's to depersonalise things, and there's nothing to oppose iyswim.

Hth.. I've been on a lot of courses!

No advice from me, OP, but watching to see if anyone suggests anything useful. Your DS sounds a lot like my DD! If it's got worse in the past couple of weeks, it could just be one of those developmental phases, where they turn into utter devil children for a few weeks then come out the other side having clearly gone up a level in mental sophistication. If so, it will pass!

Also, don't be embarrassed at people staring. Sure, a few of them will be judging, but most will be sympathetic. Rolling around on the floor screaming in public is just standard toddler, and anyone who knows toddlers knows sometimes there's bugger all you can do about it.

Sounds more challenging than my DS of same age. Agree with above suggestions of distraction and offering limited choices. Food as a bribe also works - eg let's take this rice cake into the car

What was he like as a baby?
Is his hearing ok, has it been checked since newborn screening?
Does he go to a nursery or childminder? What's his behaviour like there?

He does sound full on. There could be a reason, or he could just be a more difficult toddler.
It might be worth talking things through with a HV, they might have some ideas that might help.

Thank you for the replies and suggestions, I'd given up so I am really glad people replied.

He was a very unhappy baby, at least at first and he cried solidly for the first month or so. I kept asking what might be wrong with him as it was so painful to listen to, and I was doing all I could, carrying him instead of putting him down, often while pushing the rather redundant pram, feeding on demand, all that stuff.

No one seemed to know what was wrong with him. They just said 'it's normal, babies cry'. Well my middle one didn't cry but now we know he probably has an ASD, but even so, even my first didn't cry on that level and I did most things the same.

He hasn't had another hearing check since he was born, he often whispers and can understand whispering as well as normal talking so I don't think hearing is likely to be an issue?

I always hope the fact I'm not shouting at him will make people less judgmental. It's mainly me carrying him while he kicks and screams.

Thank you for all the tips about talking to him; I have tried quite a lot of that, the choices thing and so on. It worked for a few months but now if he is cross he is just cross, and sometimes furious, and nothing works. If I try to walk to the kitchen he will scream and grab my legs, and when we go out he will actually climb out of the pushchair harness (if I've managed to get him into it at all that is, which is highly unlikely) and just run off.

My mum often says things like that, as though she is rejecting the fact that she might just not be able to 'baby whisper' this one, you know, it must mean there is something wrong with him, he is faulty.

She is often very helpful in practical ways and is kind. But she says such stupid hurtful things too. She has done it before; my second one wasn't normal either, according to her, and she didn't hold back on that topic, and it was obvious she struggled to love him. Now she can'tremember saying any of it

But anyway I just have to try and ignore it and I tell her it is hurtful and she normally apologises.

I mean it isn't like I don't already wonder if he is OK. Of course I do.

In his 'normal' times he is lovely, sweet, talkative, wants to play with me, or his brothers, concentrates, draws pictures, laughs a lot. He likes physical play and to be 'thrown around' by his biggest brother. (gently!)

He doesn't go to nursery and tbh I don't think I could find a nursery that would manage him, the way he is now. I also wonder if it would make him a lot worse if part of it might be separation anxiety, or similar.

He does his best but he is really struggling with something, and I don't know what.

Thank you, the HV did seem a bit worried at his 2y check which was a while ago now, and said to come back in 6 months to see if things had improved. So he was obviously being quite difficult as long ago as that, which I had forgotten.

Do you think this behaviour sounds like ASD in your experience? The thing is that ds2 very probably has AS, though we are still waiting for assessment, and he is totally, completely different to ds3.

I mean he is quiet, very very intelligent, shy, ultra compliant and so forth. He has never had any overt behavioural issues, except perhaps when he is silent and doesn't respond to people, but no one has particularly suggested that's a problem, because obviously he doesn't disrupt.

is it true that boys have testosterone surges? I am not sure where I read about that.

My son was like this and has now been diagnosed with autism (he is now 3.5) but saying that I don't think every child that does behave like this has asd, what is the rest of his behaviour like? Speech coming along etc ? What kind of play?

On a practical level I could never take my ds out without reins (even now he's still on reins when we go out as he has no danger awareness) and giving him lots of warning seems to help - sounds daft but I use big sand timers from Amazon to let him know when we're going out etc. Visual cues help.

Definitely go back to your Health Visitor. She will have seen all sorts of behaviours and she did say to go back if things didn't improve from the last visit.

What you have described sounds very similar to the terrible, terrible twos that DS went through. It was only with him that we realised how easy we had had it was DD.
DS is a much more wilful & stubborn child than DD and doesn't see a benefit to being good (and being praised) and is disinterested in most of the standard bribes like a star chart or stickers or marbles. It also hasn't helped that my parenting standards haven't slipped so much as had to be compromised as you can't wait for them to tantrum themselves out or do time out ten times in a row when you have to get the elder sibling to school or pre-school which, with a 2.6yr age gap, is something we have had to do since DS was weeks old.
DS was 2.4 when DD started school and I have visions of him being on some blacklist when he starts as the teachers have seen him have such monumental tantrums...lying in the playground for 10 min, arriving being carried in a rugby hold as he kicks & hits me and someone else pushes his pushchair, having to explain the DD has a bite mark on her arm as DS bit her for no reason just before we left the house etc.
He didn't speak much until he was three so a lot of it was frustration. I've been to see the HV a couple of times who assured me it was normal. We were also referred to the SALT team who didn't think there was anything to worry about.

mine is like this he does have a speech delay and it makes communication difficult for him

i would suggest nursery you might be surprised how well he behaves mine is an angel for them mostly because they let him play outside all day and never ever need to put him in a pushchair

my pushchair is a micralite fastfold he cannot escape from that the shoulder straps are immovable! i have a graco too but he can get out of that one so im just using the micralite now

he is also my third perhaps its a third child thing?

DD1 was very like this. It was awful, I was pregnant and dreaded taking her anywhere, even the park was a complete mission because she'd sit down on the ground and refuse to move/refuse to sit in her pushchair/kick and scream. My DM asked me if I was entitled to 'help' because she was such a difficult child. I felt really hurt. Anyway she is 3 now and (mostly!) a delight. In our case it was just terrible twos. I think DM's expectations were too high (maybe mine a bit, too) and her behaviour was at the tricky end of typical, but it's MUCH better now. for you OP, it's really hard.

Thank you,

I think the HV was a bit perplexed as he refused to speak to her or do any of the puzzles she was using to try and work out his developmental progress...he just would not speak! He knows colours, knows a lot of words and can put sentences together and actually his speech is very clear and quite interesting, for want of a better word so frustration is part of it I'm sure, but not verbal iyswim. I think he is physically frustrated, if that's even a thing.

Alsowhen she asked me to describe him in a couple of words all I couldthink of was 'violent' and 'difficult'!!! which obvs didn't make a great impression

Poor lad. He can be lovely but when he goes off on one, he really goes for it. Both his big brothers have suffered, the rubgy hold and the biting are familiar territory though thankfully he hasn't bitten more than once, I don't think, it's mainly hitting people with objects and throwing hard things at us/at the tv/etc.

It is kind of like ds1 was, as he was quite hard to control too, but it's amplified. And ds1 was normally amenable to bribery with food, which this one isn't, and that means one less weapon in my armoury.

Maybe I just need to be more consistent

I am ashamed to take him back to the HV as I'm afraid she will say the same thing, that he is broken in some way, that his brain isn't working, like my mother said.

My eldest is delightful now. He is 12 and doing really well at school, happy, loads of friends, well behaved. He's just ace, and the fact he was quite similar to this one when he was small, albeit slightly less scary, makes me think that it probably is just a phase. He is making all the right noises in terms of communicating with us, with other people. It's just he gets so angry sometimes.

Gunpowder thank you it's helped to know I'm not the only one with a mother like that! I couldn't work out why it hurt my feelings so much.

I am glad your dd is happier now.

It feels to me like ds's little mind is telling him he MUST do such and such, like he can't cope if he is inhibited.

But once he is calm, which can happen in an instant, he is fine.

Given that you're struggling and your DM can't cope either I think you need to reach out. Your HV would be the obvious person to approach (and please don't feel ashamed - lots of parents struggle with their DC's behaviour and HVs are there to help), or if you'd rather not return to her your GP can refer you to paediatric services for additional support.

Whether his behaviour is 'normal' or not is impossible to judge from a post on the internet and, in a way, its irrelevant, because what YOU need is help and support to manage him and keep him safe while also caring for your other DC - whether this is a phase or something more long-term.

As for ASD - if you already have a DC who is on the spectrum the chances of having another are higher than if autism wasn't already present in the family. ASD can manifest very differently too, so just because your DS3 is very different to DS2 doesn't mean he doesn't have ASD. However, awful behaviour at age two also doesn't mean he does! If this is what's going on though an early diagnosis will help both him and you in the long run.

Thanks Juneau, that makes a lot of sense. Bit worried about going back to the HV as I don't know her and she didn't seem very keen on us but maybe there is a different one at a different clinic.

I did the M-CHAT test online with regard to ds3 and he came out with a very normal score, I mean he didn't have any red flags at all. But maybe that isn't something I can rely on. I know ds2 socred relatively highly on it (though our HV at the time said 'Oh nothing to worry about, he will grow out of it' and we had zero follow up)

I am managing, just, but it is very very difficult. Short of medicating him I'm not sure what else they could offer iyswim? We just have to get on with it. Though I understand a Dx would help massively in ters of other people's expectations so it's probably worth pursuing some more help purely in that respect.

Crossed posts! Interesting to know you can have two children with ASD and both be very different though.

He sounds similar to my ds2.
He has ASD with PDA (pathological demand avoidance).
I'm not saying this is your ds, but PDA strategies are different to bog-standard parenting strategies, and even different to normal ASD strategies. It might be worth trying something different to see if it helps.

Thank you, some really great advice and suggestions. I feel a bit more on top of it now, just from ranting a bit on here and having some avenues to explore.

I would go to see your GP ASAP as you haven't got anywhere with your health visitor.

My ds was like yours in some ways at 2 eg battle in the car, trying to control everything, non-compliant. He didn't run off however. The problems worsened and he has been diagnosed with severe ADHD. At the age of 12 he is finally having therapy.

The process of assessment and accessing support is so long I would definitely get the ball rolling now.

Your mothers comments are hurtful but if she says she can't take him out because he's not safe, that is worrying and you need to act on that.

People used to say to me, all children do that/mine does that/it's the terrible twos/he has a strong personality. But you know your own child.

Agree with happyending. You know your child. Get things moving now as it's a long road. Good luck

I have a teen with Aspergers diagnosis and a preschooler who is similar, and on a diagnostic pathway for ASD (pretty sure it would be Aspergers if that diagnosis was still used). Very bright and very stubborn!
I am going to suggest your DS sounds very similar in behaviour, especial as an older sibling has/may have ASD.

My preschooler is at an outdoor (forest) nursery, there aren't very many of them in the UK so we have to travel a bit to get there, but it is the PERFECT place for him. If only "normal" nursery had been available, he have still be home. I'd encourage you to see if there's something similar in your area, as socialisation is so important but something a bit alternative would probably suit him better... And the staff at these places, IME are more accepting of different behaviour and more willing to work with the child as an individual rather than trying to bash a square peg into a round hole.

Rather than the HV, have you approached your GP? Take a list of your concerns so you don't forget the points you want to get across :)