Nature / nurture - are boys and girls that different?

[snipskit]

Today, my DD (2) completely independently changed the toilet roll when it ran out. This is something my 3 DSs (9,7,5) have NEVER done and I'm not sure my DH (37) has either. What does this say about gender stereotyping??! Quite hilarious really - does anyone else have similar exampes of the differences between boys and girls from v young age?

Hm, I don't think my DD has ever done this and she's 16 so I don't think it's an innate female skill.

OP your thread is likely to prompt angry responses from parents of boys who love dolls and wear pink and girls who love play fighting, climbing trees and fire. Clearly there are always exceptions and I was a girl who hated dolls and wearing pink, much preferring to skateboard, play with toy cars and computer games.

That said... as a generalisation I have had a huge awakening in being blessed with a boy and have discovered that they are fairly simple creatures with pretty basic requirements: as long as you feed them well and walk them twice a day they're happy, a lot like a labrador. We have never encouraged what you might deem to be particularly boyish traits, yet he loves a good wrestle, turns anything he can into a gun (we don't allow him to have toy guns), and is very, ahem, boisterous. My dsis raised her dd similarly (i.e. didn't necessarily encourage typically girly things) and has been shocked to discover that my dniece loves pink, has dozens of dolls and you can take her out for a nice, long meal and she's perfectly happy to sit there entertaining herself nicely. In constrast this is something we can only dream of. Within minutes of sitting down at a table all cutlery and condiments have been moved to one end of the table and ds has knocked 3 drinks over. Believe me, we are not tolerant of bad table manners and only now he is 4.5yo (and he has 2 newly adopted boy cousins who display similar traits) do my family understand that we are not exagerating and he really cannot be still for longer than 30 minutes at a table.

One of the joys of having three boys is that their inherent differences - of which there are many - are obviously not caused by gender.

Each of them has a handful of preferences which are stereotypically 'girl things' - DS1 is arty, DS likes pink - but in the main they are much as LittleLion describes as long as you feed them well and walk them twice a day they're happy.

My Step sister was ADAMENT her boys would be brought up without gender stereo-typing. She bought dolls and fairy dressing up stuff and pink things as well as cars and pirate stuff.

The dolls are still pristine. Her boys were completely uninterested.

My 2 YO DS took a liking to a toy pushchair at a bootsale once, so we bought it for him. I was looking out for a doll to go in it until I realised he only wanted it to push his snail collection around in. .

There's my evidence. I shall let somebody else form conclusions!

Maybe she just needed some toilet roll?

Love your evidence LetThereBe! The pushchair story reminds me of the time ds showed interest in a toy pram - because he wanted to use it as a gladiatorial chariot.

My ds4 knows how to sort washing and turn it on, dh doesn't. I Have made a point to show all of mine 2 x dd and 1 ds how to do basic household stuff. Not because of sex but purely because I want them to know what goes into day to day running of a house and how to be self reliant when older. Ds is growing up in a house full of girls 2 x older and 2 x younger and because of that has access to a huge array of "girly" things from dolls to nail polish and make up. He's still a rough and tumble type of person and his favourite thing in the world is helping grandad with his tools, their spring project is to Build a Wendy house from scratch.

The thing is, lots of people will say 'well I didn't encourage any gender stereotyping but my boy loves x'. Problem is, you cannot be that objective.

There have been studies of people holding a newborn baby and the language used to describe the baby is noted. When the baby is dressed as a girl it is 'fragile, delicate, sweet, pretty, tiny'. The exact same baby in a blue outfit was described as 'strong, determined, handsome' etc. From the very beginning, our reactions to the sex of our child have an influence on who they are.

You say that your husband never changes the toilet roll so I suspect you do. The changing of the toilet roll in your house is done by a woman. Your dd has done it once and it's been commented on. She'll do it again now because it got her some attention. The joke that it's a woman thing is already happening. The precedent has been set.

I see the 'boys are like Labradors' thing on here a lot (maybe even said already, I've had to stop typing three times to answer the door). Boys are painted as 'simple creatures' who need only food and exercise. This does a massive disservice to our boys and to the men they will be. It's horribly patronising too. We all need food and exercise, it's just championed in boys and then we wonder why women aren't encouraged into sport. You will similarly see girls described as complicated or bitchy, setting them against each other from the beginning, comparing them unfavourably to their uncomplicated male counterparts.

You can't answer the nature/nurture thing really with any degree of confidence. The way we talk about children and the way we treat them is so influenced by our own socialisation.

I think you can say, generally, that small children are not so different from each other. They have the same needs and the same potential. Things like hormones will make a difference of course but you cannot control the socialisation of humans from the moment they're born and sadly, that seems to decide who we are in a lot of arenas.

As predicted, I can report I have two children where the boy is a quiet child who loves reading and model-making, and the girl is hugely active and very happy with being fed regularly and excercised even more than a Labrador. My boy likes pink and imaginary play and cuddly toys - but also Star Wars, Ninja Turtles, pretending toblow things up. The Octopod is basically a dolls house. Meanwhile dd likes pink and Peppa but also insists on jeans. So all a mixture of stereotypes.

They both get annoyed at assumptions that ds will like football and dd won't. Dd likes helping round the house mainly because she's 3 and its exciting - ds doesn't any more because he has other things he wants to do.

Love the boy pram stories....very creative....as children naturally are, they don't have the "boxes" yet to have to think outside of.

It's not only the parents influence though- tv, books, magazines are never gender neutral. If they leave the house they will see gender stereotyping everywhere, and peer pressure will begin as soon as they start nursery.

I have two DD's. They're completely different because they're different people. If they were DD/DS people would say their differences were down to gender.

DD1's dolls and dressing up are all pristine and never played with. One of mine would change the toilet roll because she'd notice it and likes things organised. It wouldn't even cross the other's mind.

I was on a train the other day next to a family with 3 kids. They were all playing on the bit where the trains join. The girl was told to sit down nicely because she'd get dirty. The boys were allowed to continue. If you look you see it all the time, and I bet these people don't even realise. They'd say the girl doesn't like doing x because she doesn't want to get dirty, such a girl...

It's nurture in the main. Subconsciously or not.

I see what you're saying Grantaire which is basically however you interact with your dc, you cannot account for their secondary socialisation and what they pick up from other family members and friends. But surely that's admitting that there are differences whether or not they are by nature or nurture?

When I was younger I chose to socialise with boys. The girls were indeed bitchy and regularly fell out for long periods of time over nothing. Boys on the other hand tended to be more direct about expressing their dislikes at the first opportunity, had a fist fight and quickly got over it. I preferred that.

Of course my ds is more complex than a labrador (which was clearly said tongue in cheek in keeping with the tone of the thread) and I particularly encourage him to speak openly about feelings and concerns (since that is a concern I have about boys/ men). But there is no denying that he is infinitely easier to deal with when he has a full belly and has had plenty of exercise! And he is much less high maintenance than many of his girl friends, even when their needs have been attended to. That could just be his personality of course (he is largely very laid back and adaptable) but I can't deny that many of the other children I come into contact with display similar gender characteristics.

Don't get me wrong, his sister puts makeup and nail varnish on him (which we don't object to - he likes it) and he's incredibly sweet, affectionate and caring. He has no interest in football either. Likewise we don't do gender roles in our house - we all pitch in when things need doing. I have no intention of raising a lazy adult. He has seen my dh cry and we've explained that it takes a strong person to show feelings etc.

But I do still think there are differences that become more pronounced the older they get.

Wasn't trying to stir up angry responses littlelionmansmummy, I just think it's amusing! Having brought up my DD exactly the same as my 3 DSs - she mainly had cars and trains etc to play with and loves football, climbing trees etc - I just find it interesting and endearing that she has out of nowhere developed an obsession with anything pink and loves dressing up / trying on shoes etc! I thought she would be just like the boys but although she is a tough little cookie and quite tomboyish, there is definitely an inherent 'girliness' coming out which we didn't do anything to encourage!

Love the story about the pushchair and the snail collection! Reminds me of a post a while back about someone who gave their DD some toy cars and she promptly tucked them up in the dolls bed and read them stories!

Women and men ARE expected to be different as adults in our society though, and play different roles generally, so it makes sense that we try to mould them from a young age really. Consciously or not.
Otherwise our DC would be weird non conformist outsiders with no friends I imagine. Nobody wants that!

I do think tons and tons of social conditioning happens. I cannot fathom a parent saying that a girl's liking for pink "came out of nowhere".

As I said Little, when I wrote my post it was before anybody had replied so my Labrador comment wasn't aimed at you. It comes up on these threads all the time so my comment was general.

You asked: "But surely that's admitting that there are differences whether or not they are by nature or nurture?" Well yes, precisely. But the op wants to know if the differences people see are cause by nature or nurture. I'm saying we can't separate the two.

I'm infinitely easier to deal with if I'm not hungry or in need of an outlet/exercise/interaction/sleep. Most people are. Nobody calls me a Labrador though.

None of us can say anything objective about our parenting. Your posts are absolutely loaded with language which stereotypes. This is normal, it's ingrained in everything we see and do. I'm not criticising, honestly. You describe a boy with a real mix of attributes. That's him. Lovely, unique, wonderful him. It's just interesting that some of his traits you associate with his sex and others as outlying anomalies. A parent of a girl would describe it the other way round.

"My boy is boisterous and loud and likes rolling in mud but can be affectionate and cuddly and is so friendly and kind"

"My girl is a caring, sweet little thing but she can also put on wellies and climb trees like a monkey"

For example. People describe how they don't conform by reinforcing the stereotypes.

And incidentally, I totally agree that it is important to teach ALL our DC regardless of gender about basic household chores etc so they don't turn into lazy adults expecting everything to be done for them, it just seems that girls take to it more easily in general - perhaps it's that thing of just wanting things to be neat and organised whereas boys don't tend to notice these things so much. But I know I can rely on any of my DSs to remove spider for me shudder so they're not totally redundant!!

I had an interesting chat with 3yo ds in a shop the other day. He likes to dress up. He was looking at Elsa dresses and asked me "which ones are boy dresses and which ones are girls dresses so I can pick the right one".

Spider removal in the house is done by me or dd.

Boys are painted as 'simple creatures' who need only food and exercise. This does a massive disservice to our boys and to the men they will be. It's horribly patronising too.

TBF, that's not what LittleLions said. What she actually said was that in general if her boys have good food and exercise then they're happy. Which isn't to say that they don't have other needs, such as the need for boundaries, attention and affection, just that in day-to-day life it holds true.

And in the case of my (still young) boys, it is true 99% of the time.

I'm not saying my three constitute a statistically valid sample. I'm not saying that it doesn't also hold true for girls - I don't have any daughters so can't say.

Sorry but I am a SAHM and I was with my DD every minute of the day until she started preschool recently. The declaration of love for all things pink occurred before starting nursery or any exposure to girly things and it DID come out of nowhere - I nearly keeled over in shock! Similarly, despite dressing her permanently in jeans and her brothers hand-me-downs, she still LOVES putting on dresses, WHY? Our tea set which we bought for first DS eight years ago and has been unused all that time - despite being encouraged - is now in daily use by DD. Just saying.......

I know you weren't snipskit and happy to contribute my own funny stories! It's just that gender roles and stereotyping has a tendency to attract a few vitriolic responses You've escaped so far though

Actually the more i read my responses the more I think ds might actually be a bit gender confused. There was also a trip to casualty because he got his sister's ring stuck on his pinkie finger and they needed to cut the ring off. He was wearing purple nail varnish at the time too

I also think we would be doing a disservice to our children if we DON'T allow them to express themselves as they want. My DSs all went through a phase of trying on dresses at playgroups which was lovely - it's just that it lasted a few minutes before they were back turning anything vaguely stick like into a weapon. I was absolutley adamant that my DD would NOT do ballet (if she inherits my thighs she is not going to make it to the National Ballet anyway) as I would rather we spent our time and money on swimming and other sports, but now she is DESPERATE to do it - should I really deny that to her just because I don't want her to be a 'girly girl'. She should be whoever she wants to be and honestly, I don't think that is a societal influence, it's just HER!!

Your DD never saw TV slipskit? With its surfeit of pink messages for girls. Never saw boy or girl friends of her older brothers? Do her brothers wear a lot of pink themselves - so she'd never think pink is for girls? She never saw a row of pink magazines in a shop? Never had a nice pink dress bought for her birthday? Never had pink items handed to her by kind shopkeepers or servers in a cafe?

How weird a life you must live! Where do you live? Is it Scandinavia? In the seventies?