Ideas for/experiences of dealing with a child who behaves in a narcissistic way?

[tootsietoo]

I've posted about my daughter before, a while back. She's 8. I have been struggling with how to deal with her for quite a few years now. After doing a lot of reading, her behaviour seems to fall very neatly within all the criteria for defining a narcissist. She is controlling, has no empathy, never accepts explanations for why we don't like her behaviour and generally makes family life fairly unpleasant a lot of the time. Has anyone got experience of dealing with a child like this? I need ideas, resources, help to do the right thing and make sure she doesn't grow up to be unbearable to be with! Thanks.

I'm no psychologist, but I'd be very reluctant to use the term 'narcissistic' about an eight year old. She is very young and is obviously struggling to manage her emotions.

I'd be interested to know:

How challenging is her behaviour? Is it putting a lot of strain on your family? What is she like at school?
Is she behaving this way in specific situations or generally? In all settings, or just some? Outside of the home, or just with family?
What are your strategies for dealing with her behaviour when its difficult?

There are all sorts of issues - emotional issues, certain special needs, difficult family dynamics etc - that could cause a child to behave in this way. It would be beneficial to try to get to root of the issue - the why? - before you start putting strategies in place to help her overcome this behaviour.

Again, I'm not a professional and would never dream of 'diagnosing' a stranger online, BUT children with Asperger's Syndrome and other Autistic Spectrum Conditions can have rigid, inflexible behaviour and can find social imagination and social interaction difficult (which can look like 'lack of empathy').

that doesn't sound like narcissism - just sounds like she's being a difficult 8 year old :/

Well, she's been a similarly difficult, 4, 5, 6 and 7 year old! She is the same in all different environments she spends time in. I have considered whether she could be on the autism spectrum somewhere, but I don't know where to start with that. I need some way of pinning down the why (that is what is baffling me - and why I have been looking for names to give to whatever it is) and then I can tackle the how to deal with it. Generally we try to remove attention - take the oxygen away from the fire - by separating her from whoever is having the problem with her and then explaining why we did it. The explaining why often turns into another situation though as she refuses to listen to us almost every time (fingers in ears, "you are talking too much, I don't like it", "I couldn't help it" "I had to do it" etc).

I'm certainly at the stage where I need help to help her. It feels as if we're treading on eggshells when she's around, and as soon as she's not there it's as if a weight has been lifted! I am getting to the stage where I avoid talking to her as it invariably ends up with an argument. Eg. now she's just got home from school on her own (DD2 at school club) and I am avoiding her by sitting here! It's parents evening this week, so I guess the teacher/head teacher will be a place to start for advice on where to go for help.

There is an absolutely brilliant book I'm reading called"communicating with kids" it's been a life changer for me.

I think as a. parent you can have that sense that something is not right with your child, but you really need to get some outside input before diagnosing her with narcissistic behaviour. My friend is an experienced MH nurse and she says when you read about the symptoms you may misapply but when someone with a lot of knowledge and experience of people with the problem assesses them they can tell from comparing them to others they have known with that problem.

That sounds awful. Not necessarily her behaviour (don't have enough of a sense of it to judge that) but you withdrawing from her and not wanting to connect. I think you need a very fast referral via the GP perhaps to some additional help and some assessment. I don't think this is book-reading time - I think it's intervention time for you as a family.

Hope that doesn't sound harsh but don't let this drag on. Have you spoken to YoungMinds? They have a parenting helpline for children with mental health problems - which she may or may not have. But at least they could tell you who to talk to and what key words to use to get the assessment you need.

What does school say?

Thank you Quango, I'll look at YoungMinds. I will find out if school has anything to say tomorrow. I am hopeful as the headteacher wrote a paragraph on her report about the behaviour I'm talking about, so after bringing it up at school before and not getting much response, I'm hoping he will have something helpful to say.

Even if there's no mental health issue then I at least need to learn how to deal with a personality that I completely don't understand!

Have you looked into PDA?

She's just a child.

Hurr1cane...PDA and/or AS jumped out at me, too. Again, hate doing the 'online diagnosis of stranger's children' thing, but honestly...that kind of refusal to do what she doesn't want to do or to listen to explanations does ring a few alarm bells, if family life is otherwise OK and your other DC aren't behaving this way.

My son (AS and PDA diagnosis) behaves VERY similarly. We get a fair bit of outside help. It is very hard, though, but the strategies for PDA are VERY different to the normal strategies you might use on a child who has other emotional/behavioural difficulties or a child who is 'just' being wilful.

OP, I wouldn't put all your eggs in the basket of getting help from the school (although definitely useful to get their opinion). Your GP can refer you to CAMHS or a Paediatrician who will have a much broader knowledge of different childhood behaviours and what help is out there.

Wishing you well.

A couple of years ago now, I started to suspect that my then H was narcissistic, so I read up a lot about it. I then grew concerned about my DCs, because I could see similar traits in them.

Specifically, my DD was about the same age as yours and also seemed lacking in empathy and manipulative. My DS doesn't listen when I explain why I don't like his behaviour and tells me he had to or the other person made him.

I know that STBXH's parents were very critical of him when he was a child and he feels he's never been accepted. I was determined not to go down the same path with our DCs.

So with DD, I am firm with consequences for behaviour but don't do much talking about it. I have consciously looked for ways to make her feel accepted and loved as much as possible, and I empathise with her ("did that make you feel x?").

I got all this from a poster I saw, which said something like, "Show a child acceptance and she will learn to accept," and things along those lines. Basically I am modelling the things I want to teach her.

And with DS, if he puts his hands over his ears when I go to talk to him, I say, "I see you're not ready to talk yet. I'll come back in a few minutes." I do a lot of listening, too: "You feel you had to hit her? You feel you had no choice? I think they are your hands and your brain tells them to move. Nobody can make you hit them." It's slow progress and I don't feel like I'm getting far most of the time, but I'm drip-feeding the messages in and I believe that if he hears them enough they will become part of how he thinks as he grows up.

Frilly, my son has ASC but not PDA but I know a lot of children with PDA and as a fairly new diagnosis, I also know a lot of paediatricians aren't quite up to speed on it yet (I read through someone's notes at the school gates, told them to ask about investigating for PDA and that particular women, not even a parent at the school but an escort, cornered me in Asda to thank me as her child had now been diagnosed PDA and they'd never even have looked if I hadn't told her to ask)

Psychiatrists, at least here in the US, supposedly will not diagnose anyone under 18 with narcissistic personality disorder, or with any personality disorder.

All kids lack empathy to some degree. It develops fairly late. That's why kids can be so cruel to each other in school.

What, specifically, is she doing or saying that makes you think she lacks empathy?

Likewise, in the UK personality disorders are not diagnosed until 18 (although there is something called 'emerging personality disorder which some docs accept but others don't). I would say if you are worried ask for a referral to CAMHS, alongside diagnoses they can offer parenting courses which can help with understanding and dealing with behaviour....

Thank you so much just for the understanding! I'd never heard of PDA so I've just looked it up, interesting. It is useful just to have the words to use for when I talk to people about it, and I would never have known about that if I hadn't asked here.

geekymommy, almost everything she does! she is so self-absorbed that she has no interest in what any one else is doing. She focusses to the nth degree on any tiny injury she has, yet laughs at really quite nasty things that happen to other people. Will say pretty blunt, rude or mean things to people and then if they give it back to her she says she is being picked on - doesn't seem to get at all that she has made the other person feel bad! and so on.

I appreciate that she is only young, and I certainly don't want to label her or self-diagnose anything, I just want to find the right strategies to deal with her so that we can have a reasonable relationship, so I guess I need to follow every avenue I can think of. I do my best feeding her the right messages and modelling the right behaviour for her but I am losing patience and nothing I do seems to change anything.

I felt just the same when DD was 8. She is still young for empathy. It seems to develop at different ages for different children. Her friendships will help her to develop it as her friends will lose patience with her if she continues to be self-absorbed.

DD is now 11 and still struggles to empathise with friends in arguments and with siblings. She does notice my mood, though.

Most teenagers are very self-absorbed, so be prepared for it to get worse in the future!

Do you have a supportive partner? I just ask because I think that my H was undermining me with DD back then, which made the "I'm not hearing you" a bigger problem.

I know nothing about PDA, but sounds worth looking into. Parenting is so hard, isn't it: you don't really know if you've done a good job till it's too late to do anything about it!

Does listening super sympathetically & treating her difficult behaviour as a manifestation of anxiety, help?

I have to do that with DS who doesn't tick the boxes right for any SN, but some of the PDA strategies help a little (when I can be a saint and follow them).

Thanks CharlotteCollins and ragged.

Just to update, I've had some really supportive conversations with the head teacher and also with my next door neighbour who is a child psychotherapist.

Neighbour says that the controlling behaviour will be a symptom of some underlying anxiety, and suggested attachment anxiety could be a possibility (whilst being reluctant to diagnose, of course!). Head teacher also said that she craves adult attention. I couldn't imagine what could have caused anxiety about attachment, until I chatted at length with neighbour, and a traumatic birth and a lot of separation from me for 6 weeks at 17 months old when I had DD2 by caesarian could perhaps have something to do with it. Who knows, but it's interesting.

Anyway, I now have some strategies worked out, which is to give her lots of one on one attention but only on my terms, i.e.. not when she demands it in an unacceptable way, and then to be ultra clear and consistent and instant in reacting to the unacceptable controlling behaviour.

My mum has always said that she feels DD1 often feels insecure and that she just wants to hug her a lot. I think she needs lots more hugs!

That's all really positive OP. What a great start. Good luck.

That's great OP. Nephew has similar issues and DSis is now getting lots of help from school psychs etc. The psychs also think it's control in response to anxiety and possibly separation anxiety. He also has a sibling who came along at 18 mo. Not in itself enough to cause a problem but maybe in an anxious child it's extra hard.

DSis has been v impressed by the professional help she's accessed and that's why I was encouraging you to get intervention. They've broken their heads and hearts over this for years and only now understand what's going on a bit. He's 11.

Narcissists act like typical six year olds, so it's not really possible for a child to act like a narcissist. But agree that something like ASD or PDA could indeed be a possibility.

Have you seen this website? It's really good, about "non standard" parenting techniques which work especially well with neurodiverse children but can also work with neurotypical children. www.livesinthebalance.org/

Thats great OP. Fantastic that tou are being proactive and you sound like a lovely mum.

Just one word of caution. Psychotherapists are trained to look at early childhood and trauma and attachment etc. And that may well be pertinent. But with a child with ASC or PDA, it has absolutely sod all to do with it. I had two years of being told my DS had attachment issues, behavioural issues, was insecure etc before he was finally diagnosed with Aspergers. It wasnt helpful. It put the focus on our relationship and my parenting, rather than Ds's very real needs and struggles and how we could best meet them.

Just a 'bear in mind' comment thats all. Dont.ant to sound negative x

Thanks GivOver. I will definitely bear it in mind. I absolutely know anyway that I can't diagnose anything by myself, so if I am not at that stage yet then I can really only focus on what I am doing now.

Quangle that's really interesting. Would be interested to hear more about your nephew and the help they've accessed and how if you feel like typing about it.

I had a great moment this evening. DD2 had been at Beavers, DH brought her home while DD1 was getting ready for bed. The moment they arrived DD1 started acting up. So I got her to stay in her room for a few mins away from us while I got DD2 settled in the bath, then went to her in her room, shut the door and spent 5 minutes helping her choose a new book to read. Total result. She was so happy, forgot all about having a go at her sister and refusing to get PJs on and got on with reading her book. It was so simple, and didn't take loads of time. DD2 still got plenty of time with me washing her hair etc, and by that point DD1 was happy!

Think you've found your answer there! If your child has potential issues over attachment, and craves attention (according to your mum and school) then you are not going to help at all by denying that attention. I would say try to go the opposite way. Give attention for all things positive "thank you for helping me", "you were so kind to your friend when you said that" etc etc. Give attention for the behaviours you want her to exhibit.

No one can really label any adult or child as "narcissistic" or any other psychological diagnosis unless they're a professional who's seen them face to face. So I'd shy away from applying this label to your kid without it having been diagnosed properly - without it being part of a structured plan for helping them, it can too easily be a way to dehumanise them without releasing it (I know that's not what you're trying to do, it's just easy for it to happen if you're not careful about these things).

That said, the best way to deal with the situation is to put very clear boundaries in place, and then NEVER break them. Any reluctance to uphold the boundaries, and your kid will push you and test you on it - it will become a game for them.

If they're currently in a stage where they're completely out of control, I'd suggest picking 1-3 behaviours to work on (e.g. not slamming the door when they come in/out, having a set bed time, and not leaving the table until everyone has finished eating).

Before you put them in place, work out how you'll respond to temper tantrums, refusals, etc. Will there be a punishment? If so, what? And how long will it last for? Prepare yourself so you have the response you need when your child acts up. I'd even consider preparing a template statement you can say to them - e.g. "You're being unreasonable. I don't interact with unreasonable people" or whatever works for your situation.

Just focus on getting those 1-3 behaviours in place and you sticking to your boundaries about them first. This is as much practice for you - setting and maintaining clear boundaries, and managing your own stress levels when maintaining those boundaries even though your child is acting up.

After you've started getting comfortable with sticking to the rules you've laid down, and/or they're mostly complying on the first 1-3 behaviours you've been working on, then add a few more. Rinse, repeat.

It can help to break bigger routines down into smaller steps - e.g. getting up at a set time. Then getting up at a set time and brushing teeth straight away. Then getting up at set time, rushing teeth and washing face first. And so on.

Hope this helps (I don't have kids, but have looked after young relatives, trained my partner (lol!) and have a cat I've had to train with a few things, too, I've also worked with people who are genuinely diagnosed with narcissism and other personality disorders - to get them to comply, you do have to be clear on boundaries, any movement on your part, and they'll take a mile)

I totally understand. I spoke to Camhs and relate re ds1. He came top of the narcissistic basic test, with a top score.

People think there's something wrong with you, when you partly label / question whether a child is this type.

But those people are clueless and judgemental, because if they had any idea at all of how awful it is, they might be a tad more sympathetic, instead if just parent blaming.