I'm trying to be more authoritative, but think it's going a bit wrong. (Giant essay post, sorry!)

[BertieBotts]

DS is 6. He's mostly kind and helpful and thoughtful but he gets in these silly moods where he has a crappy attitude and generally seems to think that nothing I say is worth anything at all.

Some flashpoints - privacy. We have no locks and he thinks it's hilarious to open the bathroom door while I'm on the toilet (too far to hold it closed), open the door while I am getting dressed, even touch my bum whenever he gets a chance (I'm really creeped out by this, even though I know he just thinks it's funny/naughty/cheeky). We do need to get a bolt but the other stuff will still need to be dealt with.

Disrespectful/rude language. He calls me poopy/stupid/I hate you/I will kill you/I will do a wee on you (The last two only when he's really angry, DH gets those too).

And then mornings. If he doesn't care about being on time (which is most times) he will deliberately stall and dither, to the point I've set a time that he has to be ready which is 20 minutes before we need to leave, and he still doesn't manage it. This was better when I let him have a reward (watching TV) if he was all totally ready to go, dressed, breakfast, teeth, coat, bag 30+ mins before we needed to leave. Then he could watch TV. Except he has lost that now for not turning it off immediately when asked.

Yesterday morning, he was messing around kicking open the door while I was on the toilet and laughing. I counted to three for him to close the door, three times. He did not so I said OK that is 3x 30 minute screen ban when we get home. He thought that quite the joke, so I said do you know what, your friend can't come over to play today.

Fast forward to after kindergarten. Actually realise this was a bloody stupid thing to say because I don't speak good enough German to explain to other child's mum, so pull DS aside and say "I am waiving your screen ban (the whole point of the playdate was Minecraft) and friend can come over ONLY because I have no choice today. But when he is gone, I'm going to think up some extra jobs you can do around the house instead." I considered moving the screen ban to the next day, but it seemed too far ahead. (I prob didn't say waiving but used 6yo language!)

Anyway, this did not actually happen, because friend came, we had a stunningly, unusually, amazingly perfect playdate with not one behaviour issue and he said goodbye nicely at the end without messing around, and I felt that needed recognition. So I said to DH that he didn't have a screen ban and only had to do his normal jobs around the house.

So, this morning. Repeat of the privacy situation leading to me trying to get dressed while standing against bedroom door to hold it shut, DS wandering around in pants for half an hour not getting dressed and asking inane questions, I did lose it a bit and snapped at him "GET OUT!" and slammed the door recovered myself a bit and walked into his room and said "Right, for that your screen ban is reinstated and with an extra half hour, so you have a 2 hour screen ban for this afternoon. I am sick of this behaviour." He called me poopy. I added 30 mins. He called me poopy, I added 30 mins. It became some kind of game until I got to halfway through Thursday and then I said "OK fine, until the end of Friday."

He said "Oh good, that's what I wanted!"

WHAT. I'm sure that's not how it's supposed to work. I included yesterday's example, because I tend to think that I don't go back on stuff but that proves that I do. I don't know if it's confusing to keep going back and forth on the options in my own head because then I'm wavering.

I would normally just ignore the "poopy" comments but DH suggested I might wish to get on top of them. So I'm trying. Now my gut is telling me I should really stick to this screen ban, but DH has pointed out that by Friday, he's going to have no idea what it was about, and reckons that I should sit him down when he gets home and have a talk with him, outline what is acceptable (sigh... again, it's been a while though) and exchange, or allow him to "earn back" the screen time for some extra jobs around the house, perhaps including some not very nice ones like cleaning around the base of the toilet (highly supervised of course!) I don't know, because I feel like it's important not to go back on what I've said, and also it might do him some good to have a total break from screens for a few days(!) but I am working extra this week and I'm going to be knackered.

And TBH, the privacy thing has been an issue since he was about three and I've tried everything including a couple of times where I've lashed out and smacked his hand :( it doesn't make a difference, explaining, stating that's the way it is/rule, reducing opportunity, increasing appropriate touch/physical contact (this the most successful, but not entirely), shouting, punishing. He thinks it's hilarious, and it makes me feel so, so small and unpowerful and my brain makes all of these unpleasant connections because I suffered sexual abuse from his father. I KNOW that's not his motivation, he's just a small child, but it's still hard to deal with.

My DS sounds very similar with regards to the bluster about not caring about consequences/punishments etc I have also ended up in this ridiculous escalation of punishments in a determined effort to MAKE him care. It never works. And actually he does care. When it comes to after school and he asks for his screen time and I remind him that he lost it, the fact that he does care is written all over his face.

When I feel overwhelmed what helps me is to sit down with my DH and think of no more than 3 behaviour issues I want to manage. Then I think about some feasible consequences and stick to them. I also think of a reward system. We sit down with the kids and lay it out really clearly to them. So punishments here are generally screen time or not allowed to football practice. Extra early bedtime is also sometimes used as is docking pocket money. (not all at once though - I just use one!). We've used a reward system lately where they get stars for good behaviour and they earn a treat once they get to 10 stars.

It's hard but once you've given out the punishment you need to try and ignore his reaction to it completely. I really struggle with doing this...

I have How To Talk, thanks. I've been trying to use it but it's definitely worth a re-read.

When I said counting to 3 3 times, that was why he had 3x consequences. I couldn't do anything else because I was sitting on the toilet. I knooooow that the consequences aren't immediate, but before school, there isn't anything immediate. I get stuck.

I think that my issue is - I really identify with all of the gentle parenting stuff. I love it. The positive parenting, increasing communication etc. In theory, I can do this forever. I can think up endless schemes. But in reality, I get caught out and I need an immediate answer. And a lot of the things aren't really working. The communication/gentle stuff all seems to rest on this assumption that as long as you explain it or show it or put it to them in the right way, children will of course become reasonable and co-operate, but I am finding that this is not the case and sometimes he just doesn't see it as important (like being on time for school) or he finds it more fun to start an argument or a game over something (can't fault that, really, I'm sure I'd rather start a game than go to bed or get ready to go in the morning!) so sometimes you do need to add some effing motivation.

Also, most of the websites/books/etc on gentle parenting tend to assume that you're coming from a starting position of being a bit too harsh, a bit too inflexible, a bit too punitive etc, and if anything I'm the other way - a bit too soft, too flexible, too permissive. So instead of trying out the gentle parenting tactics (which appeal to me most) I want to try being more rigid, to balance out my natural stance as pushover, if that makes sense? And then hopefully I can find some kind of middle ground.

LongDiLong Yes that's exactly what happens. It doesn't seem to matter if I change it, if I increase it, etc. And although he does care later, it doesn't change his behaviour the next morning. Something to aim for did help, but then that backfired and made us late again. Argh!

I know I need to ignore his reaction, but when his reaction is to continue doing the thing, then I need to do something? And when his reaction is one of the flashpoints, again, I need to do something! When he's really angry and shouting/screaming stuff we do tend to wait until he's calmed down and then talk about it, but when it's just a casual, laughing "Haha well you're a poopy face" then I feel like I should then NOT ignore it. I wouldn't mind if he was doing it under his breath or making an attempt to hide it or something...

It sounds difficult op. My friend just about drove herself crazy with the gentle parenting stuff with her two girls. I think that you're right in saying that it assumes children care about the same things we do. 6 years olds are rarely co operative and reasonable! In your post there seems to be a lot of threats of punishment but very little actual punishment. I assume you already given a star chart system a go? ie, 5 things that need to be done in the morning, teeth, dressed etc each getting a star and 5 stars "buys" 30 minutes screen time (or whatever it is he responds to)so the removal of a star is an immediate sanction. I don't think screen time should be the default norm and chunks taken away for bad behaviour but no screen time should be the default and time given for good behaviour. If letting him watch a bit of tv if he gets ready with no messing gets the morning running smoothly then carry on with it and just turn the tv off yourself?

I think that maybe you need to take a slightly different view on the gentle parenting thing?? It's perfectly ok to lay down the law a little. You are in charge and it's not as if you're asking anything ridiculous here!

Oh and get locks for the bathroom and bedroom doors! it's perfectly acceptable to get dressed and use the toilet in peace with a six year old.

I don't usually shout at mine. But I lost it yesterday and it seemed to be the most effective thing I've done for weeks after trying to be reasonable.

I was at the end of my tether. I'm not recommending screaming at children. But being very firm and not getting into a discussion about things seems to have worked a bit too. Stick to your guns and give yourself (and your son) thinking time.
I also said that I can't listen to him because I'm too cross. I think a kind of 'ignoring' technique seems mean and spiteful in theory, but he'd been absolutely horrible and I wanted an apology of sorts and a talk about how it won't happen again.He's 5 and I got a picture of a friendly monster. Hmm!

He'snd = He's 5. Oops.

I did turn off the TV but that doesn't prevent him moaning and stropping and not walking. He's too big to carry down the stairs of our flat, so that's out.

We do have a sort of star chart for chores which he gets money for. I don't want to pay for chores, TBH, but it was DH's idea so it's his "thing" if that makes sense. I do quite like the idea of allowing him to earn screen time, rather than having unlimited and having it limited... hmm....

I might add that I don't normally rely so heavily on punishment type things, hence trying to give it a go, and making a bit of a hash of it! I don't want to be a pushover, but it seems like I've already laid that stone, so hey ho. I don't really want to reduce every single interaction between us to be a negotiation of behaviour. I would like most things to just be normal, with high rewards/praise for big things and punishments/telling off only for serious things. But maybe that's too high an expectation of a six year old?

Have you had therapy for the sexual abuse? Being a survivor myself ( ), I know how badly that kind of thing affects your ability to function in a healthy way. Working through some of the past might improve your ability to cope with the present

I get called far worse than poopy face! I try to visualise these kind of insults literally flying over my head. Choose your battles!

Nothing wrong with high expectations for a 6 year old in my opinion. But you have to let some things go and allow them an 'off' day once in a while.... whilst trying to be as consistent as possible. It's a nightmare, isn't it?

Ah, it was only minor, I'd feel silly TBH. It's just boundary stuff. I get a bit touchy about it because it makes me feel like I'm incapable of upholding my boundaries and so I might get hurt again. Unlikely, because DH does respect my boundaries. I had counselling after the relationship but the counsellor hinted that she didn't think I needed counselling to cope with it and I might want to give the space to somebody else who did.

(This was after 10 weeks of navel gazing, so she had a point).

I have a plan. It's been met with enthusiasm. I'll update later :)

BBotts, I don't know about your history, sorry.

Today, my 'meltdown' tactic was to just to go and hug my youngest. He was clearly tired and I could feel people staring at me as he started a tantrum in public. It made me feel a lot better actually! I've done it before and will do it again - if you haven't got a clue what to do, give love! I sound like a right hippy...

No worries - was years ago. Only folks from way back will be familiar with it, and it wasn't really the point of the thread :)

OK. So at pick up, we went to buy card and sticky backed plastic. I explained the new scheme to him on the way home. He was still banned from all screens until the end of today, but he had the chance to earn some "tickets" for tomorrow's screen time, by fulfilling certain criteria. He had already lost some of the criteria today, but he had the opportunity to earn up to 1.5 hours tomorrow.

To wipe the slate clean and cancel the rest of the week's screen ban in order to start the new ticket system, he had some extra jobs to do. So he has paired ALL the odd socks in the house, which had been bugging me for ages, and learned how to clean around the bottom of the toilet. He didn't enjoy cleaning the toilet and said he hopes he never has to clean one again but he gave it a good go and did a pretty good job. Over the day he earned 1 hour of screen time which he can cash in tomorrow.

New screen time/behaviour management system is: There are several expectations that he should meet to gain his tickets. If he fulfils the basic expectations, then he can try for extra tickets (for doing extra jobs, achievements, etc). Some are given immediately and some are calculated at the end of the day. He can cash them in straight away, if he has time, or save them up. We also spent some time making cool glittery red and gold "tickets" and laminated them so they will last. (And I am exhausted from all of the crafting, cleaning and micromanaging!)

So far, so good: It's going to make him really think about what he wants to use that screen time for, rather than falling into the habit of staring at a screen for the sake of it. It helps to see screen time as a privilege rather than a right, which I hope will help us get out more as a family. (In the past we've been put off because he always moans and bitches about being asked to step away from the screens.) It's helping to focus on persistent issues, and he gets a clean slate and a new chance to try again every single day. And the tickets have gone down well as something tangible that he can hold and see.

Thank you for all of your ideas and help - I'd been wanting to do something along these lines for a while, but never quite brought it together. I will keep you updated about how it's going in a week or two.

Sounds really positive Bertie . I think you're right, having something tangible rather than a vague 30 minutes in 6 hours time is far easier for a 6 year old to understand. It also allows you to sanction immediately but defer the consequence until later. I'm not sure about letting him save them up though, what if he's really good one day and then breaks all of the rules the next but still has a voucher to cash in?

That sounds really great! I might even adopt it for my children and mindees. It's a lovely positive way of doing things!

It sounds like you have a plan now. I hope it works.

One thing that jumped out at me: your DH's strategies seem quite far away from your usual gentle parenting methods. I'm not a stalker (promise), but you have been one of my MN parenting gurus for a while. Is it possible your DS is getting confused with the different approaches?

I get that you want to be more rigid because of natural pushover tendencies - that is also my problem sometimes. Just don't forget that you chose your parenting style with good reason (at least I assume so).

You need to give the new plan a while to work, but IMO it's also worth having a serious chat with your DS, if he responds to this kind of thing. Along the lines of "look, I think neither of us enjoys mornings, what do you think? How can we do things differently to feel better?" Then let him come up with a plan. Perhaps write it down with pictures to illustrate, as a daily reminder. Reinforce with frequent more casual chats and praise.

Also, is there a reason for the amount of screen time your DS has? Do 6-yo need to play mine craft? My DD is only 5, but I wonder if it might be a good idea to do more outdoor stuff to burn off energy and strengthen your relationship with DS? Keep screen time for weekends or Fridays or something. See how getting crafty together made him feel.

I hope this doesn't sound patronising as it's not meant that way. But I just always liked your general parenting ideals that came out in your posts.

In occasions of extreme misbehaviour that needs an immediate consequence, he'll either get extra jobs (I wanted to avoid this as the whole housework-as-negative thing, but he already sees it as negative but gets on with it fairly cheerfully anyway, and to be fair, cleaning is rubbish and boring, isn't it?) or DH reckons we can/should be able to block redemption of vouchers until a set time. So that's an option, too. Plus if he is misusing something, or we feel it's appropriate we can ban access to one device or game or whatever.

But (in theory) it allows us to deal with more one off issues differently than going straight to a threat, more ongoing issues in a more ongoing way, and allows a nice easy reward to be given for anything which needs recognition.

Ah no worries Hrrm and thank you :)

Yes DH is quite different to me in outlook. Strange really - we actually balance each other out quite well. I was quite worried about it when we first got together, because I was aware that (or felt, at the time) I was pretty far from any "mainstream" or typical parenting style if that makes sense. Anybody who tries to handle toddlers without some form of time out is considered quite strangely, it seems. And my only real life frame of reference, at the time, was attempting to co-parent with my ex, who I now realise was not authoritative but just a dick, and lazy. His idea of parenting is the one which has as little input as possible and he wasn't afraid of using physical discipline, which started to rear its head when DS was only 10 months old. Luckily for us, in many ways, he has chosen the true low-maintenance route and doesn't see or even write to DS any more.

I've changed my outlook a fair bit since then. The rigid authoritative/punitive vs gentle/perhaps sometimes permissive divide just isn't there as much as I thought it was. Perhaps it's the internet, perhaps because a lot of resources are aimed at American parents where the culture definitely leans towards the authoritative, and perhaps my experiences with my ex were skewing my ideas, but fundamentally, DH and I have very similar ideas about the values we want to impart and it's just our methods of getting there tend to differ. I will tend to go to great lengths to avoid using extrinsic rewards and punishments whereas he will jump to them much quicker than I would - yes, sometimes I think too quickly. But he is learning and we talk a lot and he has taken on board many things I have said/read/shared with him. We do disagree on some things, but mostly it's harmonious, and I have been surprised to see that sometimes when I've let him try his approach even when I'm thinking "Nooooooo!" (which took a really long time, to trust him to that level) - actually it's been fine, and DS has taken it on board, and I know he'd never do anything which I'd consider crossing that line into unacceptable. Today DS actually said about the ticket system "Wow Mummy, that sounds SUPER FUN! Can we do it every day?!" which I totally wasn't expecting.

They say children are supposed to teach you, and this one is teaching me that structure can be important indeed :) I resist it, probably childishly really. But he loves it, thrives on it. I wouldn't have seen it, I don't think, if I hadn't broken out of my comfort zone and had somebody to push me into doing that.

About screen time, hmm, well, no he probably doesn't need that much. But both sides of his DNA are computer nerds and his stepfather even more so, perhaps, so I think it's somewhat inevitable. When he is denied access to screens he draws games on paper and "plays" them. Going outside more will definitely happen when it gets warmer, but right now, no chance. I am just not the kind of person who will spend one unnecessary second outside when it is below 5C, it doesn't seem to matter how many coats I wear. He does get lots and lots of outdoor time at kindergarten, which is great. And I need to be move about more within the house myself, too, which I'm working on. Currently a lot of my activities at home are also screen based.

Cripes he was trying to teach me this at a year old! I remember resisting and resisting and resisting the idea of a routine and eventually conceded to try one at around 13-14 months but only based around mealtimes, you understand, and DS loved it. Totally different baby.

The only thing I will say about screen time is that there's a definite correlation between how my son behaves and how much screen time he has. And certain games really set him off - minecraft is actually ok but anything competitive where he could win or lose and he gets really hyper and tantrum-y.

I feel terrible saying this as a childminder but I hate being outdoors in the winter too! I make myself do it but I'd really rather be indoors at this time of year - and we're nowhere near -5 degrees here.

I sometimes get quite upset at some of the attitudes to structure and routine here on mn. I think that the prevailing wisdom is that baby led is best and having a routine makes you some sort of dictator/Gina Ford type. But what about if your baby leads you to a routine?? I've never really been bothered about routine as such if for no other reason than I'd be in it too. I'm a SAHM so no real need to get up at a certain time, eat at a certain time etc but my baby (14 months) has always had other ideas. He's just happier doing stuff more or less in a routine. I think children appreciate some structure and limits. I know my sister's three behaved best when they knew where the "lines" were and knew the consequences of crossing them. Their dad used to let things go, and go , and go then snap and it just ended in everyone upset and no lessons learned. Far better to structure reward/sanctions so your ds will know where he stands!

My DS was very like this last year.
I think 30 minutes is just too long a time for them to comprehend (like when he says 'thank you, that's what I wanted'- so like my DS) so perhaps say for each time you've had to count to 3 that he loses 5 minutes off his total?
Or, even more positively, perhaps each time he does something that he should do (e.g. dresses, eats breakfast, gets shoes/coat/schoolbag on etc) he earns 5 minutes screentime for after school?

I have had to tell him a lot about inappropriate touching (he only does it to me, thankfully, but still) and it's a case of always being consistent, continuously reminding him it's inappropriate, removing attention from him if he cannot keep to the rules (e.g. he prefers bedtime story from me, but if he cannot behave, then he gets it from DH).
He is much, much better now, and only really lapses when he's angry (because he knows it pushes my buttons!).

Hi bertie if he likes routiney stuff, how about a set of "post it" notes with 'brush teeth, eat breakfast, shoes on" all written on individual notes. And each morning he moves the notes onto a special picture with spaces for each (pictures of the task?)
This might only work for a short while til the novelty wears off (and requires someone to move the post its off again) but the habit might form..
I will try and think about the boundaries thing and post if I come up with any suggestions. (It would drive me mad too if someone opened the door on me in the morning )