Dare i raise the question....

[CharlotteACavatica]

who has let their kids have the MMR? how do you feel about it? Ihave a 6yo a 3.5yo and a 1yo and my 1yo dd is due to have hers next week, i havent let the other two have theirs and neither shall i be letting dd, but as so many people know its 'supposed' problems im still interogated and asked why why why? i have heard that the more patients your gp gets to have the MMR the more he/she gets paid, if they get 100% they get a shed load of money but if the percentage drops below 90 they start getting charged!!!????

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Charlotte, has your friend been in touch with the National Autism Society (think that's the name)? They may be able to provide advice and support. Whatever the cause, this child needs help.

FWIW I had singles for ds after careful research inc. talking to Drug and Therapeutics Bulletin (expert reviewers of medical evidence) and looking up the Cochrane Collaboration data. DTB says MMR is safe but the evidence for safety isn't as good as it should be. There just hasn't been enough of the right sort of research carried out. Because of my family history, there's what may be a very slight extra risk from MMR for ds - probably nothing but not worth taking a chance on.

I've also studied the medical establishment (government/drug company/Royal College of Psychiatrists) response to the link between Seroxat and suicide. The establishment tactics for rubbishing Wakefield and promoting MMR smack of the way they handled Seroxact, before they finally had to come clean and admit there was a link with suicide.

My sister works with people with autism and delayed her dd's infant vax (when they contained thimerosal) and chose singles. My mother, who knows some of these service users well and saw measles frequently as a child and an adult, says in the end, weighing up the worst case scenario, she'd rather have a child who was blind as a result of measles than one who had autism. Brutal but her honest opinion.

"pharmacueticals (who, strangely enough, are the only people with the funds to carry out research on the subject. )" Not true. Plenty of research carried out by academic departments with no fincial ties to the phramaceutical industry.

"not to mention the fact that vaccinations don't necessarily protect you against anything." No, depending on vaccine you get a 80-95% chance of becoming immunised, more so after a booster. if you thought they worked differently and that they promise 100% protection, you thought wrong.

"I notice every time there's an outbreak of measles anywhere the majority of people who catch it are immunised." Perhaps because in this country the majority of people are still immunised?

"Yet still mothers are looking for the weak link, assuming it's the fault of some selfish person who didn't get their kids immunised." No, it could also be from a child who was vaccinated but amongst those 5-10-15% in whom it didn't work.

"mass vaccination is denying my children the chance to get natural immunity." Plenty of countries you can travel to and get ill if that's what you want for your kids.

Still didn't answer my genuine question about the so-called over-loading.

Christinatheastonishing - so called 'overloading' was explained really well on the Radio 4 programme 'Case notes' last week. Dr Mark Porter interviewed an immunologist who talked though how immune systems are influenced by vaccines. I think you can listen again or at least get the programme script on the Radio 4 website.

Thanks, found the link, here is the stuff on over-loading, i.e. nothing of the sort:
"
ELLIMAN

Quite often people when they say they feel their immune system may be overloaded we're not quite sure what they mean, what the outcome would be of that. But there are two things that might logically follow. One would be that someone who'd been immunised was then more susceptible to other infections in the period after immunisation and there have been very large studies looking at this, some only in the recent two or three years published on hundreds of thousands of children, showing that if you're immunised you are no more likely to end up in hospital with a serious infection. The other way that it might affect your immune system is giving rise to more what are called autoimmune diseases, when your body, in a sense, reacts to itself, things like Multiple Sclerosis, rheumatoid arthritis, diabetes. Again quite large pieces of research in a number of countries have looked at this specifically and found no evidence that that's the case. And perhaps it's worth reminding people that although we seem to be immunising against more diseases, actually in the last 40 years the number of active bits in the vaccine has gone down enormously. So if we go back to 1960 when we were only immunising against five diseases there was something like 3,200 bits in the vaccine that could potentially stimulate your immune system."

Cristina, how ridiculous of you to suggest I go abroad to get measles. Why the sudden personal comments? It's typical of these threads and the fit-in-or- fuck-off attitude I have come to expect from them since I chose this path.

There is plenty of evidence of the deleterious effect of bombarding the immature immue system if you are open to it, which I very much doubt.

I won't pretend I can explain the immune system convincingly and of course it would be impossible to do justice to such a complicated subjects on a Mumsnet thread, but since we're quoting people and referencing experts with whom we agree, I can refer you to the writings of people like Trevor Gunn and Aviva Jill Romm (to name but two) both of whom write in a way with which I totally connect.

There's plenty of evidence which convinces me that my gut feeling is valid and should be listened to, and I'm sure you feel exactly the same way.

Well, Spidermama, you chose to make a long and personal post, so why are you so surprised that it gets a reaction?

Regarding the so-called overloading, yes, what I suspected, there's a feeling of not-quite-right but when it comes to it no proper evidence can be provided.

I am actually open to reading other stuff, which is why I asked. But please, please, not another link to that horrid Whale website.

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BTW, you'd be surprised to get any fuck offs from me on any thread. I'm quite a prude like that.

My post was long I grant you, but it wasn't personal. Find me the personal bit and I'll hold my hands up and grovel.

I have no idea what 'whale website' you're talking about. Could this be an attempt to link my views with something you deem to be snort-worthy? I think we should be told.

"I get picked on for flying in the face of herd immunity. I could equally be furious that mass vaccination is denying my children the chance to get natural immunity"

Hence my suggestion to you to go abroad if you really want to get your children ill.

Sorry, yes, the Whale website is one i get sick off. It is snort-inducing and i was quick to imagine you'd link to that (I've just seen it somewhere else today).

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Socci, regarding vaccine effectiveness, for the MMR one source is here:
www.mmrthefacts.nhs.uk/basics/twodoses.php

I can find for the others too, are you genuinely interested, or only to rubbish the sources for being of the medical establishment? Just let me know so i don't waste my time.

"it has to do with the natural passage of a disease, which is why measles is not generally a killer disease in the UK but represents a genuine threat in some other countries."

I don't get it? It must be even more "natural" in other countries.

So you assumed I'd be the sort of person who might link to your snort-worthy whale site did you? [Hmm]

I'll continue to strive not to pass similar judgements on you and your views as this sort of prejudice impedes sensible, informed debate.

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Yes Spidermama, imagine that, yes, i thought you'd be that kind of person. Plenty of generalisations in your own posts so I'll be excused a small generalisation of my own. Quits?

OK, Socci, would you want primary research links? Would you trust those? So what do you know about vaccine effectiveness then and what sources do you trust?

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"Injected straight into the bloodstream, they by-pass the body's natural methods of processing potentially pathogenic organisms."

I've heard this before but what about tetanus then?

Dreading entering this debate again. I too went the single vaccine route for both my boys. Immunisation does not under any circumstances give the protection we are led to believe in. May I also ask other mums here what they feel about the news that the is a drug resistant strain of TB now in Eastern Europe and bearing in mind that a great many people from these countries are now entering the rest of the EU, are your children protected against TB. This vaccine was stopped in the area of Scotland I lived in. However I can now get it for the boys in the US and will be doing so.

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I chose the mmr for my children - I worried before they had it and I worried after they had it. ds2 will be due his booster in the next 6 months. it is a very hard and very personal decision. I do think parents have a right to choose. however I would like to see nurseries make available information on how many children of the relevent age have been vaccinated regardless of whether singe or triple. you could argue that every vaccinated child caries a risk of autism, but counter that with every child who refused to be vaccinated puts more children at risk of other diseases unneccesarily.

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