Dare i raise the question....

[CharlotteACavatica]

who has let their kids have the MMR? how do you feel about it? Ihave a 6yo a 3.5yo and a 1yo and my 1yo dd is due to have hers next week, i havent let the other two have theirs and neither shall i be letting dd, but as so many people know its 'supposed' problems im still interogated and asked why why why? i have heard that the more patients your gp gets to have the MMR the more he/she gets paid, if they get 100% they get a shed load of money but if the percentage drops below 90 they start getting charged!!!????

Both mine have had it, and both were fine.

I think it is entirely up to the parents CharlotteACavatica and if people are interogating you over your choice of not giving it to your children I would tell them politely to piss off, it is your business and yours alone .

However, IMO, I believe vaccinations in the majority of cases are a good thing BUT I do definitley think there are a small percentage of children who do have adverse reactions and there should be more research in finding out how/why this is instead of everyone mud slinging.

get the singles charlotte, sounds like you want to anyway.

send the bill to no 10.

Vaccinating is just a game of risk- some children will be more at risk from vaccinations than others, some will be more at risk from the diseases than others. And in each case for each vaccine its a case of having to wiegh up and decide which is the safest course.

It's all shades of grey anyway. Ds1 got rubella from a vaccinated child. Someone I know had a vaccinated dd who caught measles and then she took her to a play farm (I was the one who rang her up and told her she should stay in). I deal with my responsibilities by checking in the mouth for koplik's spots when ds2 or ds3 have barking coughs and runny eyes.

For many people they will feel most comfortable vaccinatiing their children, which is fine. It's just not fair to get holier than thou with those who don't. I have yet to meet someone who hasn't vaccinated wihout giving it any thought at all. Some of the diseases they vaccinate against are very scary, they cause real damage, no-one is going to reject the opportunity for that protection without some serious thought (when they introduced men c I had ds1 first in the queue, I was enquiring after it).

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Jimjams2 - im sorry, it must be very very hard however you look at it, its a tough subject

Charlotte:

"walks round and round in circles flicking things and and repeatedly spelling long words, he is also randomly having violent outbursts, their GP cannot find any specific reason why he should be this way"

Has anyone other than the GP seen this child? Never mind the cause, he sounds like he needs to see a developmental paediatrician for a diagnosis.

I think in the end the only thing you can do is go with what's right for you charlotte. TBH the MMR stuff is kind of by the by, I may well give ds2 and ds3 single measles jabs when they are older (although have been put off after meeting someone last week who was in touvh with people who had regressed in their teens- she runs a support group). I bloody wish it was possible to get a single paediatric tetanus jab though!

sorry, when I refered to herd immunity I thought that they meant that if the majority are vaccinated than that will prevent an outbreak thus protect those children which it would not be advisable to have it. DD1 had meningicocal septicima (bacterial meningitis) so my 4 will also be immunised against that.

Some people see the importance of preventing childhood diseases as so great that occasional severe adverse effects are considered necessary casualties or sacrifices' for the greater benefit of humankind.

Then there are the very common 'milder' reactions like screaming, fever, apetite loss, swelling and inflamation which are just considered par for the course.

I believe that there's a long term picture too and that we may well discover too late the effects of assaulting the immature immune system manifested in the form of chronic auto immune problems, behavioural problems, respiratory problems, exzema, allergies and other chronic health problems which are increasingly prevalent in our society.

yes jimjams, and I also wish it was possible for women or girls who are not rubella immune to get a single rubella jab - they cannot, they have to get a full MMR. It is an outrage IMO.

Mine are up-to-date with their immunisations. I "consider vaccines to be miraculous medicines that can relieve humanity of burdensome diseases".

The supposed over-loading of the immune system is often brought into such discussions. I wonder what evidence you have for it? Other than hear-say.

I don't feel polarised at all. I feel as if I made a decision for me and my child, very close to the centre of a carefully thought-about list of pros and cons. And don't fel strongly that I should tell other parents which side of the balance they 'should' adopt, either.

But of course it's possible that the majority of people who post about it feel polarised.

Oh God here we go....

Donnie, mine was a genuine question. I hear SO much about the over-loading of the immune system, yet all the stuff I came across shows nothing of the sort, at least not for healthy babies and children. I'm genuinely curious how people get this idea. "Well, it stands to reason, innit?" seems to be about the extent of the argument in many cases.

actually yes Cristina I think it is an interesting question. Especially wrt the choice to have single vaccines (as Andrew Wakefield proposed). AFAIK (and I have asked the question many times) I haven't seen any kind of research based answer, or anything beyond speculation. It seems to me that if, as Wakefield posits, the trigger factor is the measles virus (it being the factor identified in the guts of the children in the first study), then I can't quite get a grasp as to why it would be less risky to have the single measles vaccine or indeed to catch measles (though I don't know if the virus could pass into the gut in that instance).

My two dd's haven't had the MMR, I still feel I made the right decision but agree nobody should force their opinions on other parents who have the right to choose what's best for their children.

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My DS had MMR and I believe strongly in immunisation. I also believe in informed choice, my problem is that most people are 'informed' by the media which thrives on hype and nonsense. Immunisation is a complex subject requiring expert medical knowledge and the best place to look for this is your GP. Your GP may well be penalised financially if less that 90% of children are immunised as it is his/her job to educate parents and ensure that we never return to an era where child death from preventable illnesses is the norm. This is an emotive issue and you obviously feel strongly as you have not had your children immunised therefore you may benefit from expert advice. Just a final thought - someone has already mentioned herd immunity and it is herd immunity which protects babies too young for immunisation.

Jimjams2, he has seen many different Dr's and specialists and they say he has Autism but arent prepared to officially diagnose him with it, im not sure as to the in and outs of it, only that his poor mum has had years of frustration, upset and heartache, which she wholly believes is the fault of this vaccine!

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Just another thought - there was a good programme on radio 4 last week giving the facts on immunisation. The programme was called 'Case Notes' by Dr Mark Porter. You can probably still listen again on the website.

Vaccines confer artificial rather than natural immunity. Injected straight into the bloodstream, they by-pass the body's natural methods of processing potentially pathogenic organisms. It's a risky strategy and a minority of children who have suffered terrible consequences will testify to that.

I won't deny that some aspects of modern medicine are brilliant. My son (type one diabetic) would be dead without medical intervention (insulin).

BUT, I don't believe in the vaccination myth. It is enduring and powerful and some days I wish I did believe in it as my journey would be so much simpler.

It's a sacred cow of the medical establishment and mass immunisation is worth billions of pounds to the pharmacueticals (who, strangely enough, are the only people with the funds to carry out research on the subject. )

There are so many glaring flaws and omissions in the research, as well as a great deal of positive research on subjects like the benefits of natural immunity not to mention the fact that vaccinations don't necessarily protect you against anything.

I notice every time there's an outbreak of measles anywhere the majority of people who catch it are immunised. Yet still mothers are looking for the weak link, assuming it's the fault of some selfish person who didn't get their kids immunised. People need to wake up to the fact that immunised people get measles therefore the jabs aren't working.

God I could go on for hours. I get picked on for flying in the face of herd immunity. I could equally be furious that mass vaccination is denying my children the chance to get natural immunity.

Yes some people have sufferent complications from measles. Some people are more at risk. The teenager who died recently (the first to die in 14 years as a result of complications from the disease) has a serious lung condition and was on heavy immuno supressants drugs. Obviously terrible for him and his family ... but to vaccinate an entire population of children - with all the risks that involves, and with doubt surrounding the possible long term effects of these vaccinations on our immune systems - is badly wrong.

Excuse the long post but believe me I could go on ten times that length.

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Socci - I didn't mean to offend. It just drives me mad to read so much rubbish written on the subject of immunisation. Because this is such a complicated issue most people simply can't do the first hand research as it would just take too long so so have little option but the media. It is also very difficult to ignore straplines about autism and overloaded immune systems when you're faced with making decisions about your child's health. Being a pendant, I did do the research and the really important information just doesn't seem to filter through to us parents because it doesn't grow readership.