What does Alfie Kohn actually tell you to do? (aviatrix, juule, ?)

[flack]

I got the Unconditional Parenting book.
TBH, I thought it was useless. It spent so long rubbishing most of what parents have been taught to do to get good behaviour (not that I'm convinced by his evidence, but anyway). Then he says something like "I'm not going to be prescriptive and tell parents what to do instead, they can figure it out for themselves"

So he doesn't offer any alternatives at all.

I peeked at the forums on his website and the people there seem just as clueless as me, really. Actually, quite scarey his devotees are, fumbling around for answers.

So Aviatrix or anyone else who is a fan, what does he suggest you do to inspire bolshy kids to behave? Does he give any tangible guidelines in one of his other books?

I was reading Ghosty's thread but didn't want to hijack it (I have a similarly uncooperative 7yo).

I'm puzzled now. Where does AK say kids shouldn't do housework? Or have I not got to that bit yet?
I think I'm missing the point of something somewhere.
Filly - I think there is a difference between saying 'tidy up your toys and you can have some sweets' or saying 'Why don't you tidy up your toys so that we can all relax in a tidy room'. There is a real purpose to the second statement whereas the aim of the first is to obtain sweets.

see juule, thats fine

have you come across the hardcore unschooling movement? or the natural child movement? they wouldn't make a distinction. they'd say "if you're bothered by the mess thats your problem and you should do something about it". i have a real problem with it. especially since there seem to be a men there decrying feminism, which always wees me off.

am trying to place kohn ideologically.

I have come across some of the unschooling movements. Some of the things I've come across have really made me take a critical view of my attitude towards children. I do like a lot of the things on Sandra Dodd's site. Regarding the "if you're bothered by the mess......etc", then I agree that if it's not bothering anyone else it must be my problem. However, I would like my children to also understand that my feelings count as much as theirs. So, I would tell them that the reason I'm ratty and upset is because the place is a mess and I'm tired and don't think it's fair that I'm always the one to tidy mess up that I didn't make. I've found that depending on age, children are generally happier when everybody is happy. If they don't understand then I'd tidy up and try again next time. Usually young children do want to help. Bedrooms are their space and my kids rooms are usually a mess. We blitz them every so often so that although they are messy, I know they are clean. I personally would love to have show-home rooms but they live here too. If they were very unhappy with the mess but tidying it overwhelmed them then we'd all get stuck in together. Something that I'd remind them of when I needed help with something.
My view is that children are little people with much the same feelings as adults but with the disadvantage of not as much experience. They need to be guided and shown how things work and gain an understanding and the experience they are missing. It does them no good to be bullied or given unrelated rewards because, for me, that doesn't develop understanding. They are, if you like, apprentice adults needing mentoring. Not pets that get a chocolate drop for sitting still when it suits me.
Perhaps that sounds a bit harsh and it's going a bit extreme. As I've said before I'm not above a bit of bribery and corruption but I don't do it seriously.
Oh what a ramble. Hope you can make some sense of it.

here's the problem as I see it

my children are not there to "help"

it is their responsibility also

I don't mind helping them carry out their responsbilities, not at all.

but it is their responsbility to take their plate out, etc. I don't beat them if they don't! And neither do I reward them if they do. The expectation is, however, that they will, because that is their contribution to the house.

what needs doing and who should do it etc is up for negotiation, but the basic idea is that everyone shares responsibilty for the house.

I actually think that far more democratic than the idea that looking after the house is my task that the kids "help" me with. No. They are doing real, helpful work of their own.

was about to start going on about the continuum concept and children working at a young age and how this is good for them...but will save it

Filly - I think we are agreeing with each other here. unless I'm missing the point of something. I absolutely agree with everyone doing their bit. And fwiw I also think that that the continuum concept is the right idea. Children should be gently integrated into responsible roles in family and society from birth. Not treated as an alien species and kept apart until they are 16/18+ and then flung into a world that they have rapidly got to acclimatise to.

ah good its nice to agree

jean liedhoff has a specific prob with communes, she feels that to have shared , mutually agreed rules is unhealthy and does not see them as a way forward for this reason.

I think to expect people to pull their weight and have a code of conduct containing a consensus position is fine. actually i think it avoids argument and resentment, so is perhaps desirable.

i like TCS a lot, though it is 90% blindingly obvious. have you com across this?

I've just finished reading Alfie Kohn's Unconditional Parenting and it has been revelatory to me. As a full-time corporate lawyer, committed reader of "The Economist", consumer of private education and general eschewer of all things connected with lentils and weaving, I surprise myself! But to me the book is so well argued and so well supported by research, it's very compelling. I think Unconditional Parenting is something one can only work towards and will probably never actually achieve. It's not a prescription for parenting, more a prism through which you can view each of your parenting decisions and interactions.

It feels quirky yet right at this point to step aside from the mainstream of parenting opinion and practice.

Yes, I have come across TCS and again I'm in favour of a lot of what it's saying. I haven't gone into it in any great depth, though. It seems to me that all these things seem to have a common thread running through them in that you are advocating mutual respect between children and adults.

Me again, What is TCS.
You know that you lot will make me spending a LOT of of money on books again.

TCS is Taking Children Seriously.

Filly, I'll email you about senidng the book.

Cristina! I got your book about 5 minutes ago, I am flicking through.

thanks for sending it to me and especially so quickly! You are fab!

I'm interested please, aviatrixortreat.

can you email me please on

vikkielaine at hotmail dot com

thanks

I've emailed you, thanks.

Received!

Many thanks!

I've followed this thread with interest. We feel uncomfortable with punishments and rewards ourselves, and try to use different approaches (lots of talking - about how our actions affect people, things, feelings) with our nearly two-and-a-half-year-old son. I've been meaning to read some of these books for a while, and you've all prompted me to get my hands on them.

I have some questions in this vein, which I'd be grateful for some views on ...

(1) Margot Sunderland, in The Science of Parenting, also recognises that it's important to encourage self-motivation in kids, but she does say that pre-age five, the cognitive/empathic ability isn't there to reason/negotiate/compromise. Actually, in our experience, it often is, but a lot of the time, it doesn't seem to be. Sunderland advocates rewards/consequences until the child is developmentally capable of fairly calm and rational reasoning, empathy, etc. Any thoughts on this parent-well-and-truly-in-charge philosophy, pre-five?

(2) When others of you find yourselves drawn towards certain parenting theories, particularly those which come to actually underpin your approach to parenting, how (if at all) do you encourage your partners/husbands to come fully on board too? Dp can listen to my enthusing for a few minutes, and essentially "get it", but he's not going to read a book! And I think, because these approaches represent such a shift from the parenting styles we've all grown up with and practise automatically, quite a bit of parent re-education (rather than short chats here and there) is needed. Ideas? And dp would love a course as opposed to a book - does anyone know of any parenting courses in this style?

(3) Because of our current circumstances, we have a cleaner for a short time most days. Ds has clocked what she does, and says, "Mum and Dad don't do jobs." One of my biggest concerns about getting this kind of help (more dp's idea than mine) was what it would teach ds about responsibility for housework/contributing to the household. Dp says he'll learn to be savvy enough to delegate it , but I do wonder. Do you think you can have home help and still advocate democracy, everyone doing their bit, taking responsibility for mess/tidying, etc?

These questions aside, the theories you've all been discussing strike a chord with me/us more than any others, and I'm grateful to you all for this thread, which has come along at a helpful time for me. I'm been looking after my special needs sister this week, plus ds, and it's been exhausting; two sets of totally different needs, two totally different paces of life. There hasn't been much play, and there's been a lot of rushing about, snapping, "Hurry up!"s and the like. This post has reminded me that I don't want to get stuck in this mode - that there's another way!

Thanks all. EBAB

I would agree with Sunderland tbh. It's somthing that I have to be very aware of when delaking with my severely autistic (7 year old) eldest son. Many times he has very little control over his behaviours or understanding of them- he certainly doesn't have reasoning or empathy (screaming children are funny iyswim, as are shouting adults ). I was advised by an autistic adult herself that its important to distinguish between voluntary and involuntary behaviours, and where behhaviours are involuntary to step in and take the control that he can't provide himself. I see the same thing to a lesser extent in my other children.

I've found with my younger children (wiith no SN) that there are a far wider range of strategies that can be used, and that those increase with age. I still think successful ones involve reinforcement of some sort, but that it is quite easy to use reinforcement intelligently and thoughtfully.

I recognised your last paragraph. It's very, very hard to balance very different individual needs and something that we have to work hard on in this house.

As for getting your dh on board. I'd recommend courses. DH hasn't been on any general parenting courses (they do run though), but he's been on some ABA ones- it was essential he did so that he understood the theory behind the way we are teaching/working ds1. Also DVD's can help. It does have the irritating side that if I do something wrong (shout "no" for example in response to something dangerous) he'll appear at my side and say "nice bit of reinforcement there".

EggyBread, I think I agree that children under 5 find compromise very hard. They just view it as them losing either way. Even my 7yo still fights against compromise, very often.

I have found reading this thread really interesting, although I don't understand half of it.

I guess I'm the only one who doesn't find Kohn's ideas well-supported, then? I did agree with a lot of what he said, it's just that I didn't agree with a lot of it, too. So I couldn't be taken to his conclusions. And it's not practical, anyway.