What does Alfie Kohn actually tell you to do? (aviatrix, juule, ?)

[flack]

I got the Unconditional Parenting book.
TBH, I thought it was useless. It spent so long rubbishing most of what parents have been taught to do to get good behaviour (not that I'm convinced by his evidence, but anyway). Then he says something like "I'm not going to be prescriptive and tell parents what to do instead, they can figure it out for themselves"

So he doesn't offer any alternatives at all.

I peeked at the forums on his website and the people there seem just as clueless as me, really. Actually, quite scarey his devotees are, fumbling around for answers.

So Aviatrix or anyone else who is a fan, what does he suggest you do to inspire bolshy kids to behave? Does he give any tangible guidelines in one of his other books?

I was reading Ghosty's thread but didn't want to hijack it (I have a similarly uncooperative 7yo).

Yes of course its ridiculous because behaviourism is about far more than sticker charts or whatever. Behaviourists don't even use punishment these days (not proper ones- board certified behaviour analysists)

these are the people we are working with , and their bit on the behavioural part of the programme. These guys get children who have reached 8 years old and never spoken a word to talk within days. (Reported to me by the parent). They manage that because they are exceptionally good at relating to the children and at teaching them. They do it using a mix of approaches but many of their progammes have a strong behavioural element.

To equate that to supernanny and to suggest it could be "peddling" is offensive. Which puts me off the guy big time.

But its daft to rubbish the technique because people are doing it wrong!

Also tbh there may be an element of it being used too often, and too rigidly (something works well the first time so is used again in exactly the same foormat) rather than incorrectly iyswim.

I've never watched supernanny- although seen reports and I'm sure there's plenty to criticse there.

If you have time have a peek round the GM website- I think it gives a good impression of how child led they are. Honestly the person who runs it has an amazing way with the children as well.

Well you know things have moved on a LOT since Skinner. these are people who run VB prorgammes (very closely related to Skinner's work, they'll mention him somewhere on the website). It's a long way from the image that is often presented of using his theories.

I have been following thi thread with great interest because for the first time there are people here who are able to talk about the theories behind the 'techniques' we are using (whwter it be rewards, time out or whatever).
Now you lot seen to know much much more than me about it. So could you explain the accromyms you are using :
PET
UP in conjunction with Punished by Rewards
ABLLS protocol
PBR
R & P (is that for rewards and punshiments??)
I really appreciated your input Jimjams2. You obviously had to do much more homework than most of us on that subject.

Aviatrix, I think everyone gets told/taught by friends/HVs/whoever that rewards and punishment help to get a child to do things you want them to. Nearly all of us have a cultural acceptance that praise, rewards and punishment have their place in parenting, at least sometimes.

Kohn rejects this partly because he thinks that the big wide world is harsh enough, so love from parents should be as unconditional as possible. I think he has too much faith in children being able to understand limits and boundaries so easily. I would love Custardo to read the book and make a few choice comments!

Amaretto,
PET = Parent Effectiveness Training . This site gives a critical overview.

UP=Unconditional Parenting, the name of his book and the whole philosophy that Kohn is trying to kickstart.

That's making much more sense now

flack, thanks a lot for the link! I had quite a long browse and I quite likd the way he looks at things. I am just finding it difficult to see how it woud work with a 3 years old! The same way than 'How to talk so that yur kids will listen' actually.
Has anyone of you actually implemented some these metehods? With success or not?

I have read the book from the author of 'How to talk' related to siblings.
I found it great TBH as the emphasis is on them to find a compromise together. but also on what we, as parents, sometimes (often ??) do wo even thinking about it : compairing our children for example.
It certainly helped me to teach my two to find ways to solve their problems. Now they are just 3yo and 16 months so there is still a LOT of work to do .
I can't however really be convinced that you can parent children wo any R&P. Another cultural thing perhaps?

In response to op Alfie Kohn doesn't tell you to do anything. He does tell you the flaws in rewards and punishments and how they can cause more long term problems than they solve. Reading AK puts into words much better than I can the things that I find disagreeable with the "do this and I'll give you that" approach. I have never been a great fan of the reward system and while it has its place at times I do think it gets overused. As for punishments I would rather try and encourage understanding of a situation than take a ?just do it or else? approach. Having said that there are some situations, especially with very young children where I have to remove the child until the situation calms down.
From what I understand he isn?t against giving something special when someone has done well. Just that it isn?t a condition before the thing has been done. The big thing for me is to attempt to get a child to do something because they want to and not because someone says they will get something for it if they do. Whether material things or for praise. I agree with him that the important thing should be the task and not the reward or punishment. And yes, I have bribed my children but I am now more aware when and why I am doing it and can reflect on whether it was actually fair or the right thing to do.
Just to say, I am so glad that we didn?t use a system of rewards when my older children were younger as we really wouldn?t have been able to afford their ?fees? for good behaviour now they are in their teens. Also, where you may be able to ?make? a younger child behave in a certain way, there is no way it would work with a 6ft teenager who towers over you. It is much better to put the effort in when they are younger to prepare the ground for mutual understanding and trust when/if they go off on their wobbly teen years.
I don?t think I?ve put what I mean very well which is one of the reasons that I?m enjoying AK book as it puts into words things that I think but don?t quite know how to explain. I also like Doing It Their Way by Jan Fortune-Wood.

hey fellow froot eater

have important question

is alfie kohn one of these who say that kids should't have to do any housework unless they want to?

Filly - would you like to borrow my copy of the book? Let me know. I won't need it till after Christmas as I have a PhD to finish until then (hence why i find MN so fascinating at the moment).

cristina, that would be great! Have you still got my email address? Mail me yours and I'll send you an SAE (have got Remedial Maths course atm so am also MNing in earnest...)

avatrix-hmm. see this is kind of my problem with several writers who aren't john holt. I believe in reaching a consensus over what needs doing, but then expecting everyone to participate, IYSWIM. We are a very democratic family, but the bottom line is, the kids have to eg take their plates through, do their share of chores, help with the cooking etc because they are part of the family, and we all have to do things to contribute to the family...I think it desirable that kids are required to make a meaningful contribution to the maintenance of the family. Plus also, I think kids need basic self sufficiency skills.

to me its not about removing rewards/punishments. its about making them real life rewards punishments. eg saying to ds, its your turn to help with the food...and if he refuses-we don't eat! And its not about being uber-strict or doing it in a punative way, its about making then see that their contribution to the household is meaningful and necessary.

I guess I feel strongly about giving kids responsibilty for a. themselves (couldn't give a feck about their rooms, really, or at least, won't once they actually have rooms) but b. the family. they have a duty to the family. and this is for their own good. it gives people the opportuniy to learn things but also self-esteen to be needed.

does that make sense? have had some really unpleasent experiences debating this topic on american boards (sandra dodd-ugh-really nasty in conversation IMO) and so this might come over as more defensive than is intended.

also, in practical terms, I am not planning to spend my time as a HEing parent picking up their mess. Just aint doing it.