How would you handle this behaviour long term?

[despondentmummy]

I've posted about DD1 before but am just despairing of our situation at the moment. She's 3.4 and is having big tantrums every day at the moment, normally more than once a day. We've just moved house and she's moved to a new pre-school, which she enjoys going to and they say she's settled in well, and DD2 (10 months) has just started crawling. The tantrums all focus on getting attention, mainly by getting you to do things for her, carrying her up the stairs is a classic and can result in a real screaming, howling tantrum from her. I don't want to carry her up the stairs because a. She's heavy and b. I'm carrying my 10month old, the source of all the attention-seeking drama I think. But it can be anything - food not cut the right way, not getting her the right tissue, not tying her dressing gown up right. And she just flies off the handle, once screaming so much she was sick (I was horrified). As I think this is all about attention, I just make sure she's safe and leave her to it, I don't want to reward the behaviour with attention, then when she's calm I make sure I spend quality time with her when the baby is asleep, so no chores for me at naptime, we spend a couple of hours doing a puzzle with her, stuff like that. But then as soon as I have to do something else, she loses it again. It's making me completely miserable and making me not want to spend any time with her at all, it's like having the house dominated by a moody teenager, I feel like we're all running round after her demands and it's making me resent her behaviour and to be honest feel a bit bullied (if im too close during the tantrums she'll hit and kick). Am I handling this right by ignoring and positive attention when she's calm? I can only think not as the tantrums aren't getting any less frequent or less angry? What am I doing wrong? I feel like a terrible mother at the moment :(

I would do rewards and consequences I personally don't think ignoring works for big ongoing problems. I think you needs to assert your control you are the parent and you are in charge she needs to know that her behaviour is totally unacceptable and will lead to consequences for her. Get a naughty spot and sticker chart and get tough on her if you really stick to it she will soon learn her bad behaviour not only doesn't get her attention it leads to (age appropriate) punishments.

I think ignoring it is sort of making it ok she really needs to know it will not be tolerated in your home and good behaviour will lead to much more attention than bad will.

I forgot to say if you can arrange someone to come for support for the first few days of your new regime your partner, mum or a non judgy friend it will help so much.

First of all I dont think you are doing something "wrong" some kids have that personality that is a little intense and you know the joke about them being "threenagers". I think there are things you can do to improve matters, but one thing is to not let it get you down, you need to stay calm and upbeat and that won't be easy if you feel bad about yourself or her.

One thing I noticed from your post is that you said you think she is seeking attention and it sounds like she might resent the attention given to your dc2. You sound like you are giving her attention after she tantrums, make sure she isn't seeing the connection you might even give her some quiet time after so she doesn't feel tantrums have a good result, dont make it a big deal though, but what you might focus on is giving her more attention anytime she is not acting up. Even just noticing little things she does right and saying why you like it. Look for ways to point out nice things she can do that dc2 can't.

Another thing is to offer her choices wherever possible. This helps to avoid the power struggle element that seems to be part of her tantrums. If you want her to do something try to give options and be flexible whenever you can about how things are done. Wherever you can avoid the opportunity for a power struggle.

Also are you, yourself someone who likes things to be done right, do you get upset when things go wrong? This will fuel her desire for things to go how she wants it, so try to be laid back about outcomes and not over react if something doesn't go how you want.

Thanks both, that's given me a lot to think about. I think what I struggle with is that once she's flown off the handle, she needs a mood breaker, I feel she needs help to control her emotions as she's only 3, she's obviously feeling overwhelmed, but I feel if I give her attention in any form (ie try to help her snap out of it) during the tantrum itself then I'm just rewarding the outburst, so I'm torn as to what to do. I've tried distraction and humour, but that doesn't often work. I've said to her no TV that day if she has a huge melt down, and she does remember that - asking if she's been a good girl that day and therefore can she have some TV that night etc - but it doesn't seem to be having an impact on the behaviour long term. She didn't watch a lot of TV anyway but now she's watching it a lot less than before. Yes Live I am a complete perfectionist & I battle with anxiety but I never thought about the perfectionism impacting on her in that way before, that's given me a lot to think about. Why I posted this morning was that we had a 7.30am melt down because she said she was cold, wanted DH to fetch her dressing gown (which she could easily reach & get herself) then put it on a certain way, put it on here, not there, dressing gown itself is too cold etc. When DH refused to play that game she lost it, came and found me, screamed with me in the room, I left to have a shower, she found her Dad again, screamed with him in the room. Eventually she gave up, got herself a t shirt and DH helped her put it on. DH isn't usually here when this happens, it's normally just me and the baby. I try not to have power battles over the small stuff, so she knows things like holding my hand by a road, car seat done up etc is a must and if she kicks off over those things then we just go home. But often when she's making demands like this (you get it, you carry me, you do it this way, not that way etc) I've got my hands full of baby, I'm exhausted, I'm probably a bit drained with the stress of the move too.

You're not rewarding her tantrums by trying to help her regulate. Ignoring the "bad" isn't working.

She's got a baby sister with loads of attention and new house and new preschool. That is a lot! The baby will be causing her to feel jealous - the baby has changed and meeting new milestones and I bet gets most attention from visitors etc. A new house is a big deal. And preschool - that will tire her out.

I would work on managing her emotions. I find that ignoring tantrums without trying to manage them and hey even give cuddles makes things worse. My eldest is five and can tell me what's wrong because we've worked on helping him. My nearly 3 old is getting there.

I would occasional endulge her. If she wants carrying, then why not. She wants reassurance that she is still your "baby" too - because she is. When your ten month old is her age, you'll realise she is still so young!

Try and tell her what she should do e.g. let's hold hands! Or walk near mummy!

It is hard when you're tired I understand. But go easy on the poor girl.

Thank you QT. So if I put DD on the bottom step, she comes off straight away, thrashes out, kicks, hits etc. So I find it gets physical - I'm trying to keep her on there, she's attacking me trying to get off. How would you handle that?

It's hard because when you are in the middle of it, it's so fucking frustrating. Especially when you have a baby, new house, not much sleep... and they seem 'old enough to know better' . However, when you are on the outside looking in they just seem like tiny tots struggling with so much change, just wanting to be mummy's baby again, wanting to be mummy's only baby again... wanting to be cuddled and fussed over like the baby. They don't really understand their feelings and they have so few ways to communicate their needs, that they do it by regressing and demanding :(

I would try, first of all, a bit of love bombing. Try to make her feel very special all day, lots of hugs, kisses, comments and try not to make too much of the baby. When the baby is happy playing, eating etc don't make a fuss. Give her some Big Girl 'jobs' and rewards, tell her how special it is to be the Big Girl - MUMMY'S BIG GIRL and how boring it is to be a baby. (Your 10 month old wont know or care about all of this). Make a big deal of how much she can help you because she's your bestest Big Girl and the baby needs it's nappy changed because she's a baby and not a Big Girl. Do things like have a 'carpet picnic tea' with her once the baby is in bed because on ly Big Girls can do that. Choosing what to have for dinner or where to go or whatever it is - things only Big Girls can do.

Try to get DH onside and both of you do the things she asks, even if she can do them herself. She needs to trust that she's not being replaced by the baby in your eyes/affections.

It's all very Rah Rah with a big smile - but generally it does work.

After a while she will see that being Mummy & Daddy's Big Girl is much better.

When she has a tantrum, try holding her against you. Very firmly, but lovingly, not angrily (it's not easy, just do your best) and talk quietly and calmly to her. Tell her that you understand she's upset and that you will help her to sort it out.

Put the baby somewhere safe and if the baby cries, the baby cries - it wont hurt her to be left for a few minutes.

There is no harm in trying this way first is there :)

Thanks Iggly, yes I do indulge the baby talk - so lots of yes you're are my baby, I tell her lots of stories about her as a baby etc. I do try but there are times when practically I can't carry her up the stairs cos I'm carrying the baby. How have you helped you're 3 and 5 year old manage their emotions? I think that's going to be the trick for us because as you say ignoring isn't working anymore.

Thanks Chipping, so would you try to do as she asks, so with the dressed dressing gown spending the time getting it just right for her in the way she demands? In short, should I be giving in to these small things for her?

Eventually she gave up, got herself a t shirt and DH helped her put it on

This ^^. If she's not getting the attention when she tantrums she WILL give up.

DM I would for a short while (weeks not days) to see if once she feels 'safe' that she's still Your Girl she stops being so demanding. I know it's incredibly hard when you are just so exhausted and when you have a baby a 3 yo looks so big...but it's a bit like your DH bringing home a second wife - you'd probably kick off too if you still wanted to be his special wife and you'd hope he was kind to you, not shouty wouldn't you?

[...and I say all of this as a very '70's brought up', firm, no nonsense, no pandering person! I don't do asking a thousand time, I do asking once, telling once, no crap. In general.]

Yes, if you want to teach her that now you have a new baby she no longer matters, that's just the way to go about it.

I try and tell them in simple words how theyre feeling.

Dd had a massive tantrum today because she was hungry, thirsty and tired. She went mental because I refused.to fill her cup to the brim with drink. She wanted more pasta too, as so hungry but could only scream and wail.

I sat with her calmly and said she was hungry, she kept screaming, I said she was hungry qnd tired and to eat then said nothing and just cuddled her. She kept wailing for more drink. In the end after sitting with her she started eating and had a drink - I didn't give in to her tantrum for more drink but I stayed with her. She finished her lunch and I put her down for her nap. Later that day she could tell me she was tired.

Basically I do stuff like this - calmly label how they're feeling - so they can tell me. Ds now corrects me if I get it wrong!

I'm not saying they don't have tantrums but ds is so calm and dd is in the midst of that age where she finds it hard to tell me but I know it will get easier.

When they're playing up I do sometimes blow up and use a time out but it doesn't really work beyond calming me down to then move on.

I'm rambling a bit - I read a few things:

dr sears

playful parenting

I found it draining, and still do, when I start ranting at the kids and threatening time outs etc so dipping into these remind me what works!

Thanks all (Chipping I'm a bit confused by your last comment - was that aimed at me?) I did try love bombing a bit today, so carried up up / down the stairs every time she asked, indulged all the fussy demands and she was certainly happier today, basically because I did everything she asked, but Ofcourse I was able to today as I had DH at home with me, so another pair of hands for baby. That won't be the case tomorrow :( thank you for those links Iggly, just looking at them now...

That's a lot of changes for a little person to manage and I'm afraid that at home is where she'll feel safest to let it all out - a good thing believe it or not!

I've got ds, 3.1, and dd nearly 6 months. Thus far we've indulged his need to be babied - which usually surfaces when his sister is getting attention he isn't, like spoon feeding or being carried up the stairs. He was fiercely independent before she was born so I think it's directly related to feeling a bit pushed out.

I found the website aha parenting to have lots of useful tips and advice, but I'd also say cut yourself some slack as it's bloody hard work with two and we can only do our best!

As for how to respond to tantrums, it depends on the likely cause with ds. If it's frustration or tiredness I try to hold him if safe, leave him on the floor if he's thrashing around too much. He throws things when frustrated so we've never really been able to ignore that, but we also subscribe to the idea that leaving them alone with uncontrollable feelings doesn't help and is probably a bit scary for them. Saying that, of late I have snapped with ds often and sent him to the sofa while I calm down :)

Thanks Misty, that makes sense, good to hear I'm not alone in this as well cos I'm blaming myself a lot. It's my job to help her manage her emotions, and I feel like I'm failing her. And Ofcourse I feel guilty that we've inflicted all this change on her as she's clearly processing it all.

The guilt and the blame are part of our job unfortunately. I read a good Blog recently called ask moxie, particularly the August posts about parenting truths - one of the points was that parenting is a very very long conversation we have with our children and even bad blips are uunlikely to hugely negatively impact the general tone of the conversation: so as long as our kids feel loved and accepted, don't stress the details too much. I'm a psychologist supposedly and I may know the theory but practice is another thing altogether!

One thing I keep meaning to try is special time with ds. 15 minutes each day where just me and him do what he wants. Check it out on that website I mentioned. Can't type anymore as the baby is trying to get my phone! Oh, I also started a thread on not coping, so you're definitely not alone.

Good luck for today :)

Well after a few days of improvement and serious love bombing, so treating her like a baby, carrying her up the stairs, feeding her if she asked for it etc. - still having tantrums but it was like her heart wasn't in it, it certainly didn't deteriorate into hysterics, we've had a terrible morning (and it's only 8.15!) and I'd really appreciate advice on what I did wrong, as I'm starting to feel this must just all be down to my parenting :( so when I went into her room she yelled at me 'I want Daddy not you!' Eventually when she got up she yelled at me that she was wet, demanded 3 different knickers, wouldn't tell me which cereal she wanted then yelled when I gave up and walked away. Wanted to eat it upstairs in our bed, yelled that she couldn't get up to the bed on her own, that she couldn't get up on the loo to do a pee....etc etc etc. all obviously wanting attention, ie I need you to do this for me but I'm only human - I'm exhausted!!! I've lost my temper, I've yelled back her this morning, I'm at the end of my tether, please help me move. I feel like the worst mother in the world at moment, please tell me what you would have done this morning, should I just be giving in to these demands? I've got a baby to get ready in the morning too. So sad this morning :(

[My comment that you asked about earlier wasn't aimed at you, no. But at the other poster who said to just ignore her.]

She really is in full on pantomime mode isn't she!

However, a few days of improvement & still having tantrums but it was like her heart wasn't in it isn't to be sneezed at is it :)

I want Daddy not you is a charming phase most of them go through. Answer to that 'That's a shame as Daddy is at work/in the shower/twiddling his thumbs'. Acknowledge but move past it.

Is wet a new thing or is she still in night nappies? If not, maybe consider going back to night nappies (doesn't usually last long!).

Knickers/Cereal - give her the choice of A or B. End of. If she doesn't choose, you do. Joy being she's still small enough to manhandle into her knickers! If she doesn't eat the cereal that's her choice.

Does she ever eat in your bed? Seems like an odd request unless it's something you sometimes do?! Either allow her if you do sometimes or just say 'No, we don't eat in bed, but you could sit on my knee if you'd like to :)' If there's a tantrum, ignore it.

You have to balance her need for you to 'look after her' (baby her) and your ability to do so. Try to do as much of it as you can (but insist she speaks nicely - use things such as 'I can't understand you when you shout/speak like that, ask me properly if you want something).

You aren't the worst parent in the world, you are doing your best!! She's 3, it can be very very difficult

OP - your last post described almost exactly what I went through this morning with my DC1 who is 3.2. He started nursery 3 weeks ago and has been having terrible meltdowns which, like you, I'm finding very hard to cope with - these take the form of mummy feed/carry me/pick me up or wanting things exactly his own way - he then screams and screams if things can't/don't go his way. So you are definitely not alone, it is completely normal and things will probably get better on their own as long as you remain calm, consistent, firm and caring - at least that is what I'm telling myself and how I've decided to approach it.

I pick my battles very carefully and when things get really bad I put him in his room and leave him after explaining why - not as a punishment just so we have time apart from each other and so I can have a breather myself, gather my energy together and go back to deal with the emotions! This usually works for us as when I go in and then give him a cuddle/try and speak to him he usually calms down enough for us to move forward.

I know how exhausting and dispiriting it can be!!

Thank you both, I can't believe how hard this phase is, I feel completely exhausted like I've run a marathon! We've had no serious meltdowns for the rest of the day (bedtime to go yet!!) & we've been out of the house almost all day as I just can't bear to be in while it's like this. Chipping no she's still in nappies at night time, so what she meant was she wanted to her nappy off but felt clammy and wanted drying, which was fine until we had The Knickers Dilemma! We sometimes cuddle in bed having toast in the morning at the weekend with DH. It's normally lovely :( What a day. Here's hoping this phase passes quickly Poc!!

DD2 could (even at 13 can) be a very similar kind of control freak.

It's not simply attention seeking, it's a deep seet need to feel in control and get people to prove they love you. DD2 has no younger siblings and the most patient big sister, but she still did it.

Some ignoring, some giving in before tantrum starts and doing as asked, some putting her first even though she was being unreasonable help, but sometimes there is nothing for it, but to yell and declare she was being utterly unreasonable and she could go to her room and tantrum to floppy dog.

Coolas there are some really good ideas there, I need to keep them on my phone or something so that I remember in a crisis!! Elephants do you think it's something I've done to make her so needy?!! Was it that I had another baby?! Sometimes it feels like you're pouring all your love and your emotional energy in and it's worse than getting nothing back when all you get yelling and dramas every day! It's hard when you feel like all your love just isn't enough.