Ds friend has stolen and is now lying. What do I do? (if anything)

[MerryMarigold]

Ok, so last Friday ds1's friend was here (he is nearly 8). Ds1 had a brand new metallic gold and silver pen set. His friend had also brought some fancy pens (not gold or silver and completely different type to ds's). They were doing drawing etc. and sharing nicely. After friend left, I could not find silver pen anywhere. Ds quite upset as they were brand new. Thought friend must have taken it (possibly by accident, likely on purpose- but it was tempting. Kids do stuff like that at times).

Text his mum next morning (weekend) to say silver pen was lost and had her ds 'got it mixed up' with his stuff? Reply came in about 30 seconds 'No, He did not!' Clearly, no time to have checked! Just replied, "Ok, that's fine". Then came a text later that evening saying actually her DS had sent that text not her, and she would have a look around for it. Nothing since. Been forgotten. Pen not turned up here, so it is not here.

Last night she said she had found it 'down the back of his Dad's desk' and sent me a picture of it. Yes, it is exactly the same one. I said it was it. Thanks. The she text back, "He says it is his." I replied with a picture of the gold one and said, "Well it is exactly the same as this one. Maybe he is afraid we will be upset with him, but it is fine if he tells the truth, all forgotten." This morning, another text, "He says it is his cousin's."

Now, something which was not a big deal, a 50p pen, I feel has become more of an issue of principle. He clearly took it, HID it when he read my initial text down the back of a desk, lied that it was his when found out, then changed the lie that it is his cousin's. So, not feeling too good about him to be honest. BUT I am even more annoyed at his Mum when it is so clear what he is doing, but she is prepared to believe him rather than challenge him on it. Kids are kids. They will do stuff wrong, but they need to be taught that it's not ok. I didn't reply to the last text. What is there to say? I don't want a fight over a silly pen, but neither do I think he should end up with it, after behaving like that.

This kid is ds1's only really 'good' friend (we have had other issues with some minor bullying, but ds1 adores him). What to do, wise women of mumsnet?

Could it be her son replying?

Why not pick up the phone and talk?

That's a good point. It was late last night, past 10, so I don't think either of us felt comfortable. Then she is at work today from early. I feel like if I phone her, it will be making it a big deal. I don't THINK it his him, just from the language and she sounded a bit torn: I don't know what to do. He says it's his cousin's. She is coming to get him at 7.30 so if she brings it up, I am not sure what to say. I think she wants me to say, "Don't worry about it" hence the 'don't know what to do' text.

Just tell her that it is your sons pen and you would like it back please.

I think that's awful. The fact her ds replied on her phone denying it speaks volumes....surely she would just give it you back. She must suspect its not his as he lied in a text pertaining to be from her....

The thing is, you can't make him tell the truth. It needs to be something he learns is more enjoyable and rewarding that lying and stealing, over tume. Lots of children do this. Hiding the pen is a good sign as it shows he felt bad about srealing it. Lying too...it sounds as if he has a developing conscience. Important to also teach him to be lenient, gentle and keep things in perspective. It is only a pen. I'd let the mum handle it.

But yes, surely she will get him to give the pen back, even if only saying nice try at a joke, son, but it isn't funny, to help him save face with you and your ds, and then have a quiet word on his own.

Thanks. Yes, Yegods, we have that policy in our house. If you tell the truth, you generally get let off the most of the hook! My kids hardly ever lie (as far as I'm aware). I did say when she text that he said it was his, "Perhaps he is worried we will be upset, but if he tells the truth it's all forgotten." Then came the one about "It's his cousin's".

He is coming round today. Should I speak to him, kindly? Or leave it to his Mum? My Mum said let it go.

I would be polite but firm. If the pen isn't returned I'd cool it with the invites to play for a while. No reason they can't be friends at school but lack of after school invites should send a fairly clear message.

Personally I'd cancel today if you know him to be stealing and lying about it.

Yegods, I don't think hiding it is particularly a good sign as I assume he hid it after he read my text to his Mum ie. he knew she was on the look-out for it. Just common sense not guilt necessarily.

I can't cancel today because she asked me to have him as she's working (before this came up), and I need on her Monday as I have an appointment (I have to find 3 different places for all my kids!).

Agree with Watercolour - send a text saying until he returns what is obviously your DS's property, there will be no further playdates so he is not welcome today.

His mother is not sorting this out so you may have to.

You know he took the pen, you know he's lying. I would tell him that I know and that you want the pen back and no more will be said about it but if you don't get the pen back then you'll feel you cannot trust him in the house and you'd be very disappointed by that because you know that really, he's a good lad and has just done a very silly thing.

Enb, that's a really good approach. Thanks for that suggestion. I think keeping it light/ positive but firm is exactly what I want. It is only a 50p pen, but the greater issue is the lying and trust and I want him to know it has been damaged but can be repaired.

What do I do if he comes up with a great story? He is a master story teller so I can imagine something long, complex to do with his cousin coming straight out. He has probably been working it out all day, knowing he has to see me this afternoon!

"the truth doesn't generally require a complicated tale. The truth is generally quite simple"

After his tale explain occam's razor:

"Have you heard of something called Occam's razor? It's something lots of detectives use. It's very simple. You look at the most simple and likely explanation. Yesterday ds and you were playing with pens. After you were gone, one of ds's pens was missing.

The simple answer there is that you accidentally took home one of his pens. Maybe you then thought we would all think you had stolen it, so you hid it.

The story that it belongs to your cousin, isn't the simplest story as it doesn't explain how that same pen is not here.

Return ds's pen or it's ten years in juvie for you!" (I may have got carried away at the end there :)

The other option is "ok, let's phone your cousin now. Your mum will have his number. He'll know if he's lost a pen. That will sort this all out."

But I do see what you mean about it being so much hassle over a 50p pen. The problem here (as you state) is his mother not saying, "don't be ridiculous. Give it back or be punished!"

Tricky.

If it's not resolved I think you'll drift away from them.

Occam's razor is great. I don't think we have much hope of drifting away as they live round the corner and ds1 adores him. But we are planning to move in a year and this kind of thing is persuading me it's important! He is 7. I don't want to think what he's going to be like when he's 15 if his parents don't deal with it now.

Yes, sweeping it under the carpet and ignoring as his Mum seems to be trying to do won't make it go away. I love Mumsnet, good advice here. I suppose what I meant was, he is so young, and it can take some children time to accept that stealing is wrong, and the consequences of having to hide things and lie can be one way to learn that far more is lost than gained. Self eespect? Self esteem?

I wonder why he took it in the first place. Maybe he feels he is lacking attention in some way, wanting his parents to set boundaries the way you do in your house?

Ok I will get out of the psychologist's armchair now!

Yes, I love mumsnet and mums who know how to say the right thing! I can recognise what I want to do, but don't always know what that is!

YeGods. you are very kind. I think he took it because he wanted it and thought he could get away with it. It is not the first thing to go missing, but the first time it was very obvious. I think he's been taking bits and bobs of dc lego for a while, but then again, these things can get lost so I didn't really know, just a bit of an uneasy feeling. It's just that quite a bit of the nice bits have 'got lost' after he's been. I stopped ds1 taking anything to his house, and have asked him not to bring stuff over here so there is no 'mixing up'. I hope this is an education to him, as you say.

How is it an education to him, exactly? He denied he took the pen, his mum is happy to believe him, and he's coming round again today.
Wonder what he'll swipe this time?...

I would do a quick pat-down search of the boy at the end each playdate

I'm with bunnybing on this one! (Seriously, a "let's just check your bag/pockets to make sure you've got everything you came with" would probably suffice.) Little git needs to know you're not going to have the wool pulled over your eyes again.

Oh, that's a shame .... that he has stolen other stuff, perhaps he is aware that the relationship is more important to DS than to him, so he can thus take advantage of it.

What a shame.

Perhaps you can try some psychologically weighted comment such as 'I'm so disappointed that a nice boy like you can steal from his friend'
or similar and guilt him into behaving better. It's doesn't seem right to just let it go.

Why are you having him round again?

I would be very annoyed as no doubt you are. Why isn't she ringing up the cousin and asking have they lost a pen, what does it look like. Weak parenting and I'm sure your little boy is very upset.
I was going to suggest name labels in future but you can't label anything.
Maybe if he comes round next time say the Pens are not coming out incase anymore get lost?