How to deal with (d)h spiteful insults towards DD when she is rude

[Jinglebellsarecoming]

So my husband has ways had a mean and spiteful way with words when he is cross. I deal with it when it is directed at me but don't know what to do when it is directed at DD, now aged 10.

So just a few minutes ago he came in from work, went to say goodnight to her and she was rude to him ( she is quite rude and difficult and I am working on this with her). He walks out if her bedroom calling her a spiteful little rat and then walks out into the garden

I have talked to him a number of times about how hurtful this is for her (and me) and how it could effect her self esteem which will make her more difficult. I have give him advice, examples, strategies, books on how to deal with it better. Never one tip being to walk away or ignore it but he disagrees. Thinks she is out to get him and deserves a slap. He has never actually hit her, just says it like it will solve things.

He has a pretty messed up childhood and so has no reference to fall back on.

I just don't know what to do to make him see he is the adult and how damaging this is.

Any advice greatly received and thank you Mumsnet for the space to rant.

I had a messed up childhood too. As a result I do find that anyone being rude to me triggers a huge reaction to 'fight back'. When my kids " attack" me the things that rise to my lips are the insults that were thrown at me as a child. It's scary.

Having said that I do not want my kids having the same childhood as I did so I bite my tongue. Can't manage to turn a deaf ear but I describe the behaviour rather than call names (that was a horrible thing to say rather than "you're horrible). But it's very hard at times, esp w ds2 , who can push buttons like a pro.

Talk to your dh again OP. He needs to control his tongue. Also consider suitabe consequences for your dd when she is rude.

"You're horrible" is just an example of course. What I 'want' to say is far worse.

So, you have endured years of his petty spitefulness directed at you and now he has turned it onto his daughter ?

Didn't you see that one coming ?

No thoughts in your head that your dd could be "difficult" in reaction to seeing him be a twat to you for years and now that you are unable or unwilling to protect her from it ?

Please have a good, hard think here. You have a choice to accept verbal abuse, your daughter does not.

If you tell a child they are stupid enough times they start to think it's normal and they start to believe it. Maybe your daughter is rude because that's all she hears from him, so she thinks that it's normal. It's not. A child should be surrounded with love and stability, not comments like 'you're a spiteful little rat'. The problem here is your husband. He needs to go on a parenting course and get some counselling for the issues from his childhood or history will just repeat itself. "Thinks she is out to get him and deserves a slap" is really worrying to be honest

Oh. Good. Grief.

I don't think you need to look a million miles away to discover where your daughter has learned to be "rude and difficult". Is your "D"H always this much of a dick?

More constructively maybe...you say he has a poor family background himself. So he gets some sympathy from me for that. Is there anywhere else he could turn to learn some more positive ways to behave - other male family members, friends with children etc? When you have been short of good role models in the past, it's understandably hard to know how to behave yourself.

Yup. And so the cycle repeats itself. Poor role model for your daughter, Op. Him and you, sorry.

You butt out.
10y DDs are old enough to know they are being rude and old enough to take the consequences.

You can suggest more constructive means of engagement to both parties, but in the end they have to sort it out their way.

10y DDs are very good at smart Alex comments, put downs and point scoring - in short being rude and cheeky. I certainly was and so was DD2.

You can suggest he tries not to always rise to her bait and you can suggest she stops winding up her dad, but in the end they have to sort their relationship their way.

DH just got exasperated with DD2 at that age and stormed off to his study, despite my best efforts at peace keeping.

I confess I rounded on DD2 and called her a bitch after on particularly ridiculous bit of 9/10y intransigence. It can be a very awkward stage.

But it is a stage, with Y6 realisabilities and the beginning of a bit of preteen freedom DCs get less frustrated and begin to see why they they are being annoying.

Barbarian thanks for you reply, how do you train yourself in that split second between reaction and speaking? I know that she makes me want to say horrid things but I can manage my reaction, he cant and I find that very difficult to understand. However I was very lucky not to have his childhood.

Lady and punta that resonates with me, although I do think some of it is who she is but I know we need to teach her a way to deal with it. I will suggest counselling / course to DH. No other role models as no one else in his family have kids or if they do they are not good role models.

And I will talk again with DD to explain DH's reaction is DH;s problem not hers and see where she is with the whole thing. I will of course tackle her rudeness in the way I normally would (conversation with her and not earning ipad privileges)

nocomet - i feel too responsible for everyones emotional well being to butt out and also I hate it when anyone is horrid to DD. So maybe I do need to back off a bit, let them take a bit of responsibility for their own relationship.

Did your DD2 and DH get through the stage intact?

I'm in the same boat as you jingle, it's horrible
I know dd (8) is being rude, but dp's reaction to it makes things 10x worse!
Interesting to see the advice you I get from this thread.

My mum was / is the same. Can get very personal and not realize what she's saying once she sees red. When I was younger I was always tip toeing around her as I am sensitive and her insults affected me a lot. She's got better but can still have her moments ,and even though I'm very close to her I do end up having minor anxiety attacks thinking of upsetting her which I'm trying to work on. I can take it just about but if she ever starts it on my kids that'll be the end if us.

Talk to him ,and try to get him to understand that even though he forgets about it 5 minutes later ,his daughter won't.

Honestly it's really, really hard (sometimes it's like I revert to age 10 and just want to lash out to protect myself -totally bizarre cause I'm in my 40s).

Things that stop me:

memories of the couple of times I haven't managed it (make me sick to my stomach)

Storming into another room

Dh taking over

Biggest is frame of mind. So if ds2 is kicking off w his dad I find it easy to intervene in'adult' mode and keep calm no matter what he says/does.

What is more difficult is when it's totally unexpected or if I've just done something nice for him/them. I have real difficulty dealing with unexpected changes in temper - makes me feel frightened and hugely attacked - and this is directly a result of years of dealing w my father's unpredictable temper.

Until I had kids I never really thought about my childhood as bad - I just accepted it as normal though. Now am thinking about counselling before dc hit their teens as I really need to be able to control myself before big rebellion starts.

How does your dh feel about his childhood OP? Hss he ever really talked about it.

It's incredibly hard to back off, especially when DH finds DD1 easier than DD2 to get on with and DD2 knows this.

DD2 is 13 and yes she and DH now snuggle up in the sofa and do things together without DH storming off (most of the time). They went off cycling yesterday and returned grinning.

They won't ever understand each other quite as well as DD1 and DH do, but that's inevitable DD2 is the only normal sociable non scientist, surrounded by socially inept geeks. We are all a bit of a mystery to her.

DH has come to see her talents and accept she doesn't want to learn sciencey things. He's finally come to understand they both need to feel in control to secure. In that they are much more alike than they like to admit.

So she gets a talking to and no ipad when she is rude and difficult. What are the consequences for your husband when he does the same, I wonder?

I'm no fan of letting kids get away with stuff but I can see why she does it, above and beyond the usual 10 yo reasons, and I can't blame her. Her dad has done it for years so why wouldn't she? And her next question is going to be: how come you punish me for being rude but tiptoe around him? I hope you have an answer for that one, OP.

Nocomet I could not disagree with this more.

Me and my mom got in screaming matches with each other. It almost destroyed our relationship, because she as the adult stooped down to act as childish as me.

He is the adult. It is on him to model good behavior and act like the adult.

If he comes from a rough childhood, you should ask him if he wants the same relationship with his daughter that he has with his parents. Let him think on that for a little while.

I don't have a 10yo girl-but I was one. And my dad and I had a hell of a time fighting with each other. Our family is pretty dysfunctional, but strangely my dad and I have fairly good understanding of each other.

What was their relationship like before? Were they close?

How often do they spend time together one-on-one? Could this be arranged?

I should say, though, that if she is being rude and difficult, it's not just your job to correct the bad behaviour. I'd tell your husband that and say that if you want things to get better, you both have to agree and work on it together.

Does your DD deserve a childhood where an alleged adult gets to say spiteful things to her if he feels like it but she has to bite her tongue?

Where is the logic in allowing one person to inflict pain on another during her childhood just because he had some sort of miserable childhood?

As long as you are willing to make excuses for his horrible behaviour he is going to continue.

If you don't want him to be spiteful to your DD then call him on it. Give him an ultimatum. Protect your child.

Tell him to commit to counselling and learning to be a decent parent (and partner) or find a couch somewhere.
He has no right to inflict hurt on anyone.

But equally should the dd be allowed to say cheeky or insolent things without some form of consequence? The dad went into the bedroom with the intention of saying goodnight to his dd; I doubt he expected to get bad attitude from her in that instance and I agree with nocomet that 10 year olds should know better.

Obviously I agree his choice of words is completely wrong, and it is worrying that he acts like this frequently OP, with you as well.

My DH is an older dad, and while he didn't have a bad childhood, he is definitely of the school of thought that children should be respectful towards adults (I have seen it said on here that respect for parents from children needs to be earned). It's a contentious point between us that he sometimes says a smack on the backside would sort out any bad behaviour from our dc, but I'm not willing to go down this route. My dad agrees with my dh (old fashioned attitude to discipline).

I hope you manage to get this sorted op.

OP, I would talk to your husband about how he expects your DD to behave. She is 10, probably full of hormones, going through lots of changes- moving to secondary school soon etc. If she is in a mood (for whatever reason) how would your husband want her to deal with it? By being rude and spiteful? Obviously not. By removing herself from the situation until she's calm? By taking a deep breath and explaining herself politely?

Whatever he would hope to see from her, he needs to model it. Children are sponges, they soak up the attitudes and behaviour around them. She will (eventually!) learn to speak politely and calmly if she sees people around her controlling their tempers. She will learn to apologize and make up with a hug if she sees other people doing that. She'll learn to get her point across without using insults- if that is how she is treated.

I'm not saying at all that she should get away with being rude. A quiet, firm 'That was rude. I don't like being spoken to in those words (or that tone of voice) and if you continue to do it x will happen.' Then follow the consequence through every time.

Oh and I also think he should give her a chance to do it the right way e.g. she's rude when he comes to say goodnight, so he says a variation of the above. Followed by: 'Now, shall we say goodnight properly?' And offer her a hug.

That way, she gets the very clear message that he loves and cares about her he just didn't like her behaviour.

My DH had a dreadful childhood, and picked up some terrible "habits". I just don't let him do it. I take the child's side, if I think he is wrong in what he does. I tell him that I won't let anyone speak to/treat my child like that.

He has had counselling, now, about his childhood. He seems to find it easier to accept the counsellor telling him that his childhood was not normal, than when I used to tell him. It took me threatening to leave (and meaning it!) for him to realise he had to change, though.

Nocomet, an aside but I hope you don't let your youngest daughter know you feel she is the odd one out in the family. That could feel quite upsetting. I can relate to elements of that from my childhood - I think it's easy for families to slip into but pretty damaging :(

There are no circumstances in which it is OK for an adult to call a 10 year old a bitch. None.

10 year olds are old enough to not be rude, grown women aren't old enough to not call primary school children bitches. Grown men aren't old enough to not call primary school children spiteful little rats.

And these same people wonder why their children are sometimes rude, it's baffling.

You have a horrible home life which is sad.
Home should be where you feel safe and loved and accepted.
Your DH had a bad childhood and so you and he conspire to deal with that by ignoring it and allowing his behaviour to infect your home.

Why is his bad childhood more important that his child's?
How do you 'deal with it' when he is rude and spiteful to you - presumeably in front of your now rude and mean DD.

I sound harsh and I'm sorry for that but you are fanny-arsing around your DH being rude and mean because you have both decided its understandable.
It isn't. You have both inadvertently given him permission to be like this forever and I am concerned that whilst you think it is because he can't help it, his maintaining that she 'needs a slap' means he actually thinks he is just fine.