So where is this "line"? Opinions please

[Namelessonsie]

So from the tipping food thread I would like people's opinions on where the "line" is.

Things I have done that I am ashamed of - dragging dd (2.5) home from a walk by the wrist when she was refusing to move after an hour if warnings of need to go and ordering etc.
Wrestled a nappy off (several times actually) when she had refused to have it changed over so many hours that it wad now leaking and/or making her bottom sore
Wrestling her into buggy / car seat when we needed to go ten minutes ago and fed up with waiting.
Shouting "shut up" in her face when she had been tantrumming loudly for several hours with no sign of let up (once continued until 3am. Yes really)

All felt absolutely awful. All probably abusive. But I did them. Does that make me a terrible parent? I apologize to her, try to make it up to her, and try to learn from it, but it is difficult when she doesn't sleep more than two hours in a row, and neither does the baby, and you are reeling....

So, who does the wrestling nappy off? How bad it that? Personally I think dragging home by the wrist is worse than dumping food in a head, so obviously my lines are blurred.

Genuinely asking btw as my own childhood was affluent but dysfunctional, so am learning as I go Iyswim...

Actually I don't think wrestling the nappy off is bad as the consequences of leaving it on in terms of health are much worse then a bit of a wrestle IMHO. Dd has gone through a couple of phases of nappy change refusal and I can't see how leaving her to get nappy rash would help the matter.

There are times when you have to weigh up the situation and choose the least shit option. That's just part of parenting.

Sometimes (a lot of the time?) as parents you need to do things that your child disagrees with. Therefore I have also wrestled my toddler (screaming and going rigid) into a car seat (he has to be safe) and into a buggy (I need to take him home from childminders and it's too far for him to walk). I would also count the wrestling off a nappy in this category as something that will be in a childs best interest (sore bum etc).

However, my 'line' is crossed at the shouting in her face and dragging her by the wrist (I've picked him up and carried him as he's tantrummed and hit me and I need to take him somewhere, but I'd never drag him). It is also crossed with the food emptying over the head from other thread.

I think we all have different lines, but for me, I'll 'wrestle' my toddler when something needs to be done for his safety or because we need to do something (e.g. he to be in the buggy as we're going into town on the bus) but I won't lash out at him because I've lost control and am pissed off with his behaviour - that's something that I need to manage and in doing so, I need to show him how to manage his tempers and upsets without resorting to violence/humiliation etc etc. I am his teacher as well as his mum, and I need to model the behaviour I want him to learn not just talk it.

I agree with hopeless. Dragging and shouting in face is crossing the line. Anything for health or for safety reasons is a judgment call. Tipping food over head is abusive and child will probably end up saying that she had toxic parents. Child abuse is abuse, you can't dress it up and make it sound acceptable because it never will.

My DS1 is 23 months and I've certainly done the nappy wrestling. Most recently it's been the car seat wrestling as he's refusing to go in it. This is the one I hate most as he's so strong I have to really manhandle him to get him strapped in.

However, if I've tried persuasion, distraction, waiting etc and he's still not up for it, these things have to be done. There's not much I'm really rigid about but he gets a sore bum easily if he stays in a dirty nappy so that has to be changed, and if we're out somewhere and he refuses to get in the car seat, he has to be put in it to get home safely. I'll try everything I can think of first and wrestling is always a last resort, but sometimes is the only option.

I've shouted at him too. And cried in front of him.

It's shit and I hate doing all these things (to the point that we're not going out as much as I'm scared he'll refuse his seat and I'll have to wrestle him). It's also crap trying to carry or wrestle a two stone toddler when my back is bad as my stomach muscles still haven't recovered from two c-sections in two years.

Parenting can be tough on so many levels and I believe a lot of parents will have had the same situations as you and I.

I don't think I am dressing it up and making it sound acceptable?

And thinking about my own parenting, it wasn't the smacking, or being forced to eat food etc that made my relationship with my parents toxic, because they were common amongst my friends and they are fine. It was the constant being sent to my room on the slightest misdemeanor so I was rarely in the same room as them, it was the obvious not caring or listening.

Not talking about you Op. I am referring to the poster that was trying to make it look acceptable on the thread you were referring to.

I was wondering that too! I've done the dragging thing too! To be fair, it was because I had new born in buggy and couldn't carry toddler who kept commando rolling off the buggy board as just had c section. I felt v guilty and resolved not to do it again but was it a abusive? No. It was done with the sole aim of getting her out of the road and into the park where it is safer, cooler, I could feed newborn etc, albeit I had lost my temper. The food throwing thing on the other hand is probably quite abusive as it served no purpose other than to humiliate the child. Having said that, she probably just completely lost her temper and in all likelihood is a perfectly good loving mother 99% of the time

To be fair to you I think you held your hand up and said it like it was.

To be fair to you I think you held your hand up and said it like it was.

Yeah the wrist dragging happened when dd2 was a newborn and screaming her head off with a dirty nappy and needing to be fed. Dd1 just kept running off so I lost it. Didn't go for a walk on my own again without her strapped in the buggy, and still haven't 5 months later....

I know where you are coming from north. I used to say to dd that as long as she behaved re seat and leaving when I said that I would take her out again and again. Even at that young age she understood and rarely played up again. I reminded her of conditions before and during outings and it worked. I could never pick up dd so it was essential that she did as she was told.

Tipping food over a child's head is never acceptable. If someone has pychiatric problems then they need to seek medical help. It is important to remember who is the adult and who is the child.

I see nothing wrong with foribly changing a nappy. If a sodden nappy is not changed then the child will need up with awful nappy rash. It is not possible to reason with a nappy wearing child. The adult is making the decision that the nappy needs to be changed. The child is pinned down and the nappy is changed with love.

"I've shouted at him too. And cried in front of him"

Lots of people shout at their children occassionally and its not the end of the world if you cry in front of them. Sometimes we shout at our children because we love them.

I feel that parenting becomes toxic when the parent acts in way that humilates the child. Leaving a child in a dirty nappy or tipping food on a child's head is degrading.

I think to be fair to this OP, and the OP in the other thread, we have probably all done similar things at our worst moments. I think what makes it abuse or not is our then reaction to it - if we are shocked by what we have done, and resolve not to do it again, and analyse why/how we got to that point, and put in changes to make sure we don't do that particular thing again, then that is not abuse, but, as another poster said, part of parenting. None of us are 100% perfect 100% of the time. What makes it abuse is when it is done again, and again, with malice and/or any understanding of harm done.
Sorry for the ramble, I hope that makes sense

Makes perfect sense.

I was quite shocked when my HV recommended 'pinning my daughter down' when brushing her teeth to ensure she didn't wriggle off. I can understand the wrestling a recaltricant toddler into a car seat (check) or trying to keep a toddler still while wrestling a clean nappy on to them, but I don't really think pinning a child down to enforce tooth brushing is acceptable.

I was OK about picking up DD after she had run off and bringing her back- a thousand times if I had to - but not pinning her to the floor and forcing a toothbrush into her mouth. Not what I would expect an HV to advocate, personally.

Sorry - x post - completely agree with KnockMeDown.

I've also done most of what you describe. Sometimes you have to do these things for their own good (changing nappy, brushing teeth etc), or because you just HAVE to get somewhere. Shouting in anyone's face isn't great but sometimes things get on top of you.

I have crossed my own line, however, when I smacked his leg during a nappy change. He was kicking me and laughing, and after asking/telling him to stop a number of times he kept doing it, and I lost my temper and smacked his leg. It made him cry. It was the lowest moment of being a parent so far for me, and I was, and still am, genuinely horrified by my behaviour. I try to remember that feeling when he's pushing my buttons (which happens more now that I've got a young baby as well). So that is my line.

Parenting young children is hard though, and unless you're Mary Poppins you're not going to handle every incident the way you would want. I think the important thing is how you learn from each experience and make sure you do it better next time.

I think that no one is perfect, and nearly everyone has a story where they stepped over their own line briefly in a moment of lost control. Now, the 'line' is different for everyone, and it's better if the line is pretty far away from the actual abuse/ not abuse line.

I don't believe that abuse/ not abuse line should be 'the line' we adhere to, I think grown up behaviour shouldn't come down to the wire like that (eek, lines, wires... Maybe I should also throw in a tightrope too for more mixed metaphors!)

Here are two good (ish) stories and then one bad (ish) one.

I will say I am blessed with DS, who is a naturally obedient and 'good' child (so much that I worry a little bit that he'll get squished by other kids when older).

And also, I'm disabled, so can't do the physical hands on stuff around controlling him, so in a way, avoid things getting too out of control as I can't parent like that in the first place. What I would have done with a more non consist child I have no idea!

The only thing I did right with the 'bad' incident was that afterwards I apologised to Ds, which I feel is a really big thing. My parents never apologised no matter what they did, and I think it sends a powerful message.

Showing a child that adults can be wrong (occasionally!), that they are human, and that they model the right behaviour afterwards, saying a proper sorry and understanding the wrongness, and then learns from it... This is a good message.

Story one: humiliation in the park!

I have only once lost control of Ds and I lost dignity and had to lie / sprawling sit on the pavement just putside a park to contain him, but I didn't retaliate - he was determined to run into the road and kept trying to run off and avoid me catching him, and after 10 mins of trying and failing to 1. Catch him 2. firm 'no not safe. We NEVER run into the road' 3. then distract ... He ended up in the road (a step or two, close to danger and it scared the hell out of me)... And I grabbed him and held him as he had a massive tantrum... For an hour. With me looking like a total bitch who'd lost it, lying with him on a pavement. Was horrendous :( and it crossed my line, but was the right thing to do.

The other time was that tricky one: teeth brushing.
I had to literally get him in a headlock and hold his jaw open to brush his teeth. It was awful and waaaay beyond my line. It felt like I was abusing him, crushing of the body integrity and houndary stuff thats so important... and I hope I never have to do that again :(

His teeth were suffering because of his refusal and I had been shown how to do the head lock thing by two dentists (I wasn't sure so went for a second opinion and got the same advice). I realized that being a parent sometimes means prioritising long term health over everything. So medicine and teeth are something so important that I had to do something I really didn't want to. After that first time, Ds realised I wasn't going to back down and he gave up. Still conflicted about that though...

And the bad example, this is when I did lose it and I'm not able to justify it. Shame is big with this one.

Ds father (abusive stbxh) came round to visit Ds (the last time he ever saw him, I had to protect Ds obviously)... and instantly went to sleep on the sofa and I came in to a scene where the adult had neglected Ds and put him in danger (as he was effectively home alone). Ds had scribbled on the wall and used printing pads (indelible ink) all over the white fabric dining chairs (landlords).

I got back early (thank God), but I lost it and screamed at Ds and Stbxh all at once - bad idea, wasn't thinking, I was out of control - scared that Ds was left alone really, but no excuse. Stbxh couldn't be arsed to wake up and I was screaming at him saying 'look what you've done' etc. Stbxh lost it back at me and got really aggressive, and I removed Ds and me to the bedroom as it dawned on me I'd run headlong into a situation that wasn't safe.

I apologised to Ds afterwards, but I still feel terrible that I lost it and screamed and shouted in front of him, at him, and that he saw adult bad stuff that I should have avoided. He saw two adults put of control and i bet it was terrifying. Then he saw he cry too. It was horrible. Poor Ds :(

I think this shows that the physical stuff (in my examples) is nowhere near as damaging as the emotional stuff :(

I've dragged my toddler by the wrist several times recently.

He started nursery after Christmas and was completely exhausted afterwards for the first few weeks. Unfortunately, I still had to pick up my older child from school, push a newborn in a pram and do the whole journey in 15 minutes due to eldest SN child's transport.

Sometimes there's just no other choice.

The nappy stuff I've also done many times (and still do daily with 12 year old DS who has SN but hates being changed.) I can't say it's something I enjoy, but it's necessary.

I wouldn't abuse my children, I also wouldn't intentionally hurt them, upset them or do any of the above without good reason. But often there is good reason, like ensuring they're safe, healthy etc. It's the shit part of parenting but you balance it out with being nice, fun parent other (the majority of) times

Thank you. Lots to think about. For me it was the lack of sleep that meant I just could not cope with her challenging behaviour. So I got specialist help for the sleep that actually was about improving our interactions in the day. Ans I am much less likely to lose it. Still get that anger occasionally especially when my two children's wants / needs are conflicting, but it's better - can control that anger. So far!

How is dragging them by the wrist bad? It's not going to hurt them. I was dragged off by the arm plenty of times by my parents when I was acting up. Is the rest of their body on the floor when you guys do this?

Completely agree with knock.
A one off poor choice that you are almost immediately ashamed of is not abuse.
It completely depends on how you react and the changes you make to help ensure it doesn't happen again.
Any parent who claims they have NEVER done anything like this to their child is kidding themselves and others.
Abuse is an over used term that is gradually losing sight of what it means. A bit like bullying.
I have done nappy wrestling, child hauling and pinning down for medications and tooth brushing (preferable to pinning her down for fillings IMO)
I'm very sure my mum did all these things. I remember none of it and I adore her.

Princess baby no she trotted along while being held firmly so she couldn't run off. Again. Yelling and crying lots mind

I think the line is crossed when you do something solely out of anger and frustration and not for any benefit. Wrestling a soiled nappy off isn't anger and benefits the child. Shouting shut up in their face because they won't shut up is anger, doesn't benefit the child and crosses a line.