MMR

[sandcat]

My friends 11mth old has just got measles from we think nursery. My 4mth old was exposed and another 4wk old. After talking to an immunologist I discovered that the two younger babies would be ok, but how does somebodies lack of common sense by not immunising their child take away the option of your child contracting measles. My friends and I are all experienced A&E nurses and think it is about time the goverment stated that research has been done, and there is no link between the MMR triple vaccine and autism. What do you think. And how many parents opted out of the vaccine because they had heard what other people said, or did the most sensible thing and researched it with professionals.

petiflu I suggest you read Lathe's book on autism the brain and the environment. Pro vaccination (he invented one), also believes that approx 5% of cases of autism triggered by MMR. Not always black and white.

Any vaccination policy should have a decent compensation fund for when it does go wrong. That currently doesn't exist. Not only are parents left with severely damaged children, who will never live independently. They;'re then told they're imagining it.

Child in my son's class. had MMR, within 2 days had massive seizures, was in intensive care. his paediatrician has said he believes that MMR was prob involved in his autism (aged 7, non verbal, in nappies, will always require 24 hours care). What does his mother get? Nothing. Except to be told (generally) that she's imagining it. Because yes of course you can imagine seizures.

JimJams I understand that vaccination carries with it risk. But the question is the size of the risk of your children getting those diseases against the risk of something untoward happening as a result of the vaccination. Risk is something that is really poorly explained here. I am interested in the book you mention but would be more interested in what the other 95% cases of autism are caused by. Why does Lathe say 5%?
I'm aware that the MMR vaccine does cause seizures in some children - they kept me and ds in the surgery for 5 minutes after he had his to see if this would happen (this was at the height of the MMR panic) and I am sad for the parent you mention as their child obviously had a reaction. But I have vaccinated my two and will vaccinate my third if I have one.
As for the compensation fund - I agree with you but where does the money come from? The NHS is already in dire straits and there isn't an endless pot of money. I would want some money if I was that parent and would probably campaign for it but would still have that in the back of my mind.

Expat - I'm so surprised you had to fight to try and get the mmr for adults - I had the mmr in the initial research trial (thanks mum!) but it never went on my medical records. My GP at a recent check-up didn't believe me and then said 'well, better safe than sorry' and within seconds I'd a needle in my arm! He said they were vaainating everyone wo came into the surgery who didn't have on their records that they'd been either vaccinated or had actually had the illnesses - this is because they're concerned an outbreak among unvaccinated children could spread to adults resulting in loss of life/permanent disability. Reading your post makes me love my GP even more - I guess I'm lucky to have a forward thinking one like him.

that is reassuring what you say mummy2ashton about age reducing the chance of side effects from the MMR. I wonder if that is really true? That has always been what i hoped was the case, but having recently been on the JABS website they report adverse reactions in a wide range of children. I do not believe for a minute that the MMR is completely safe (it would surely be one of the few medical interventions in history if it was!) and i do not doubt either that measles, mumps etc can have very serious complications. I just want to know , in percentage terms, what are the chances of an adverse and serious reaction to MMR, what are the chances of contracting measles, mumps and then what are the chance of going on to to develop serious complications. For me these are the pieces of information that would allow me to make the decision for ds. However, that information simply does not seem to exist because not enough research has been done and what information is available is manipulated. I find that so frightening.

I suspect that it will be difficult to get accurate information about reactions to mmr but even more difficult to estimate risk of contracting measles, mumps or rubella because so much will depend upon the level of immunisation uptake in your specific are etc so any analysis which could give you that info would be complex and likely not to exist. Information about complication rates from the diseases themselves should be more easily available from gov websites, gp etc and I don't believe that this info is manipulated.

Liquid
It was a joke at our last surgery. DH had measles as a child, but he never had an MMR b/c he was born in 1977.

He phoned to get one this past spring b/c where he works there some blokes fell ill w/mumps, as well as where I work.

They told him no, flat out.

Changed to our new surgery and he got it w/i a week of registering.

petitfilou

the 5% comes from research. Children with autism who have been MMR damaged have differences in urinary profiles and in gut histology. I suspect that 5% relates to the number of autistic children with autistic enterocolitis (the novel gut disease described by Andy Wakefield that has been recorded in some autistic children, and the existence of which has never been disputed). A far larger proportion has leaky gut, which is slightly different. Some have no gut issues at all. There are many routes to autism.

yes of course risk plays a role. I know for example that ds2's and ds3's risk of autism is likely to be more than 100 times higher than your children's risk. Therefore I choose to treat them cautiously. Ds1 followed the classic "biological" route into autism, frequent ear infections, he has signs that he has a dodgy sulphation system (as does ds3), he appears to have problems with vitamin A processing (hence more likely to have problems with measles?). It appears from taking our family history as a whole (no autism in the family, but lots of autoimmune conditions) that our children are likely to be born with a high risk for triggering autism. By one factor or several factors? who knows? But in the same way that people with PKY can avoid phenylalanine and thus avoid the development of learning disabilities, we avoid potential triggers in our children, unless the risks are very much greater than the risk from the trigger. For the majority of children the risk from measles may be higher than the risk from MMR, but I don't necessarily think that is the case in my children.

Why would compensation have to come from the NHS? In America (until recently, although that's veruy controversial) vaccine manufacturers paid a tax per shot into a compensation fund. The more "dangerous" the vaccination the higher the tax they had to pay into the compensation fund (and they had to pay quite a bit for MMR, more for DTP far less for DT). SO the drugs manufacturers paid for any damage their vaccines caused.

It's very easy to portray parents like me as anti vaccine, a bit loony new agey. BUt you forget. We took our children for their vaccinations. DS1 is fully vaccinated, he has had everything. He is paying the price. And yes I think in a fair world he should be compensated for losing his chance to a free life. You make it sound like any parent persuing compensation (and actually I don't know anyone who has- even the person who was told by the paediatrician that her son was almost ceretainly MMR damaged has not - actually correction I do know one person who was compensated for measles vaccine damaged but she is in her 30's- and the damage happened way before the MMR was even introduced).

I also think that ds2 and ds3 should be treated as "vulnerable" and therefore it should be deemed "acceptable" (by joe public) that they can benefit from herd immunity or whatever. Until they produce a genetic test to pinpoint exactly which genes are involved, and until that can be run reliably any sibling of a potentially vaccine damaged child should be treated as vulnerable.

great posts jimjams, spidermama and expat.

i always ask this one. and no one can ever furnish me with a reply.

does anyone have accurate stats for incidence of measles pre and post introduction of mmr including complications?

does anyone have accurate stats of the number of deaths last year from measles, and the incidence of serious complications. this needs (if it is to be useful for the purposes of this debate) to include details such as age and other circumstances especially in terms of health.

caligula, couldn't agree more with your stance that anti's have generally done an awful lot of research and soul-searching....i've never heard of anyone not vaccinating their child as some visceral snap decision based on nothing more than a daily mail headline.

you have to be a bit careful with the complication rates though Ladida as sometimes the quoted rates are wildy different from ones quoted in say the early 80's. You need to ensure the complication rates are quoted for industrialised societies- the rates are obviously far higher in the developing world. Also if you quoted the complication rates in the UK in recent years it might be a bit skewed as a higher % of adults for example may be catching measles.

I have a general family medical book which dates from the 80's, and I trust those figures as it was before all the MMR stuff, and bases its rates on the situation when measles was common.

Deaths in this country has only been in vulnerable groups (so for example people with cancer)

Rates are really hard to find, did try it before and gave up. The % of babies getting measles now is higher, but I have no idea of the absolute figures (which is more meaningful). The death rate is also going up, but that is because the % in vulnerable groups catching measles is increasing. Again could not track down absolute numbers, so all a bit meaningless.

Before the introduction of any measles vax, the death rate had declined dramatically and was very low. Any pre MMR furore medical book will describe measles as usually uncomplicated self limiting if unpleasant. That seems to be the general gist. Rarely dangerous.

The best treatment for measles remains IV retinol (vitamin A), that cus complications and death rates considerably-

sorry- I mean in recent years has only been in vulnerable groups afaik.

jimjams i heart you

is there a way of getting hold of said substance in a form in which it would be useful and having it in the house just in case?

yep- easy peezy- cod liver oil. has to be liver oil though. And make sure its good quality or it'll be nrimful of mercury

Must order some in myself, mine has gone off. I'd recommend nordic naturals. I think you have to order through nutricentre who are slooooow, so if you find another source let me know

slightly off thread, but do you recommend using it as a preventive/health booster anyway?

If your child was ever hospitalised with measles then I would start badgering about iv vitamin A tbh. There is proper research out there that could be waved under someone's nose......

NOt too routinely in a young child because you don't want too much vitamin A. I'm going to start ds3 on a dose once a week I think, but I suspect he has low vitamin A (does lots of what we call "funny eyes"-looking out of the corner of the eye- which disappeared from ds1 when he had cod liver oil)

is dark circles under the eyes something to do with vit a deficiency?

and am i grossly mistaken in thinking that organic liver would help (you're not meant to have it if you're preg as you don't want to much vit a isn't that right?)

sorry have googled, is vit k deficiency and also allergies can contribute, and ds has many food intolerances so...

I had both measles and rubella before I went to school (not entirely sure of exact ages), it was irritating but I have no lasting damage from it. I was tested last year whilst pregnant to see if I was still immune to rubella and I was still VERY immune.

I know some children get seriously ill from measles, mumps and rubella, but what are the mortality and disability stats for unimmunised children contracting measles, mumps and rubella in a developed country?

Honestly, I'm disinclined to give my DD the MMR or any immunisation (though she had the first set). I'm still mulling it over.

Hard to get accurate figures ditzi because a higher % of people catching it now would have other complications. Best bet is to look at figures when measles was common. In which case very low.

Can go with allergies sophable- panda eyes. Common in autistic children- ds1 used to have them, but no longer does.

Yep normal liver is a good source of vitamin A as well.

Dizietsma, I'm kind of playing devils advocate here but what if you don't immunise your dd against rubella and she later contracts it in adulthood whilst pregnant? Similarly what if she contracts measles or mumps in adulthood rather than childhood when the complications rates are, as jimjams rightly points out, higher? I'm nt trying to cause an arguement here but just wondered if you had thought about these possibilities?

JimJams do you think that your childrens' risk of having something triggered by MMR will reduce as they get older?

yes- because I'm only really concerned about autism. I suspect ds2's risk of becoming autistic is very low now as he's 4 and a half. Of course they could have a very severe reaction and develop some sort of disintegrative disorder, and I suspect their risk might be slightly higher than Joe Public's for that (especially ds3 because of his leaky membranes).

Of course the risks from measles will increase as they get older. For that reason I suspect we will give a single measles jab to them aged about 10, unless they've already had it.

Having said all that ds3's urine results are the same as those seen in many gulf war vets with gulf war syndrome, so prob would be wise to be careful with them throughout life.

thanks for answering Jimjams. From reading some info on the JABS website it strikes me that some of the MMR complications are the same as those that can potentially arise from measles itself and also trigger things like autism (eg. encephylitis (SP?)) - i suppose this is because MMR does actually contain measles virus. It makes me wonder whether some people are pre-disposed to developing complications from measles or am i totally off on on that?

I think that is probably the case vitomum. Jimjams is likely to know.