MMR

[sandcat]

My friends 11mth old has just got measles from we think nursery. My 4mth old was exposed and another 4wk old. After talking to an immunologist I discovered that the two younger babies would be ok, but how does somebodies lack of common sense by not immunising their child take away the option of your child contracting measles. My friends and I are all experienced A&E nurses and think it is about time the goverment stated that research has been done, and there is no link between the MMR triple vaccine and autism. What do you think. And how many parents opted out of the vaccine because they had heard what other people said, or did the most sensible thing and researched it with professionals.

i don't think someones decision not to immunise their child with the mmr means they have no common sense.
a friend of mine has a son who was brain damaged as a result of the mmr. i did my research carefully and over a long period of time, i was so concerned with doing the right thing by my child. i talked to numerous health professionals about it, and thankfully came across a few who did not patronise me with the government speil about there being no link. i do believe the mmr causes autism in some cases. i had such a big dilema when it came to my son being vaccinated. in the end, i decided to get him vaccinated when he was 18 months old. it was the hardest day of parenting for me so far - i was in pieces wondering if i had done the right thing.

every parent will do what they believe to be the best for their child, based on the information they have. i dont believe one single parent would immunise/not immunise if they thought it wasn't what was best. so saying they lack common sense is very insulting. of course children can catch the measles before they get vaccinted etc, but you have no way of being certain they caught it from an unvaccinated child. even unvaccinated children can pass measles on.

oh and there has been a recent study by the canadian government which they find that there is a proven link between the mmr and autism.

I opted oiut of the vaccine and it had nothing whatsoever to do with autism.

I have plenty of common sense and did far more reading on the subject than most people.

IMO The government, the medical profession and the pharmaceutical industry have bullishly hammered home their take on the subject over and over and over again, covering up any evidence which doesn't suyit their cause and witch hunting those who dare to question the sacred cow that is mass immunisation.

They've used deliberately irresponsible, alarmist tactics to get their point across and treated parents like fools if they even dare question the programme.

You don't have to dig too deeply to find an alternative view and plenty of evidence to back up the case against immunisation, irrespective of the autism issue.

It's a tough choice for any parent but I believe it's tougher still for those who genuinely believe, as I do, that mass immunisation is wrong, because a moral majority closes ranks and starts banging on about 'lack of common sense' and 'herd immunity'.

Question everything. That's my motto.

I strongly support the vaccine programme but entirely agree with the point made by mummy2ashton that whatever parents decide to do they almost always believe that their decision is what is best for their child and have often given the matter a lot of thought. Occasionally parents just don't bother/can't be bothered without thinking of the consequences and that is what annoys me.

spidermama, what is the alternative view? really not trying to be contentious, just interested as i'll have to make the decision for my dd soon.

so far can see possible link with autism, and the fact that the vaccination may not provide protection anyway. is there anything else?

Ladidadi, people who vaccinate automatically, without doing any research into it, are far more likely to not have thought about the consequences of their decision, than someone who has wrestled with the issues and decided against.

It is very unlikely that someone who has actively sought out information, stood up to health professionals and made a decision which is constantly being challenged and re-assessed, has not thought about the consequences. How much easier it is, just to do what your HV and GP tell you, and as long as you're not one of the unlucky minority whose child ends up vaccine damaged as a result, you never have to think about the consequences of your decision.

I'm not saying that everyone who decides to vaccinate doesn't think about it, btw (obviously lots of people do masses of research and decide on balance to come down on the side of vaccinating), but I suspect that when it comes to thinking about consequences, a far larger percentage of the anti's have considered it carefully, than would be true of the millions who vaccinate without even thinking about it, because it's "automatic" as it were.

my dd had her mmr 2wks ago, I didn't do much research for the simple fact if I had she probably would not be vaccinated for any of them for a long time whilst i hummed and harred about it (my dd health is the most important thing in my life i should) tbh i think you are damned if you do and damned if you don't

Message withdrawn

wartywarthog I found very compelling evidence which backed up my strong gut feeling against mass immunisation from The Informed Parent and JABS . I also found books like this one , this one and best of all THIS to be very convincing. The last author, Trevor Gunn, also gives great lectures on the subject around the country. So too does a woman called Viera Schneider. These lectures are well worth going to if you are in any doubt at all about vaccinating.

I completely disagree with SM ( sorry, hope you don't mind)
I researched the issue thoroughly and decided to follow government advice to vaccinate.
Never regretted decision for a moment.

I tried to kick myself before posting but I have no bones with those who go for singles or MMR but what does piss me off, are people who opt for the singles and then only bother with some of them. Either they don't see through the whole programme or they pick and choose which vaccines they leave out (normally boys and rubella). I have seen a few people post on here who are doing this (one quite recently) and met a fair few in real life.

I don't mind at all bluejelly. Most people do disagree with me on this one.

i think if parents do not want the combined jab, then they should have all the single mandatory, no choosing which to have and which to not have

Oh Caligula I think that you got the wrong end of the stick with my post. What I meant is that although I personally would give my dd mmr, plus all the other imms, because that's what I think the research shows is best for her, I understand parents who draw the opposite conclusion and feel that a certain immunisation isn't best for their cjhild. What annoys me is the parents who just don't bother, don't discuss or research, don't go to the clinic for the jabs when called, just can't be arsed basically. I think that there is a huge difference betwen those parents and ones who actively decide not to immunise for whatever reason. The active decision group are clearly trying to act in the best interests of their child, I understand that even if I disagree with the decision. The can't be arsed group do exist sadly and the lack of interest that they have in imms often extends to lack of interest in other aspects of childcare ime.

Agree in principle ladida, but tbh I'd be surprised if there are many people in this group. HV's and GP's are so determined to ensure vaccination happens, that you generally have to take a positive decision not to get them done - I know my GP makes you sign a piece of paper every couple of years to cover his arse. I'd be very suprised if there were a large group of parents not vaccinating just because they can't be bothered - the HV's and GP's see to it that it's much harder to opt out, than in.

They definitely do exist Caligula as I've met them through work and these children are often those who are neglected in other areas, poorly fed, innappropriately dressed for the weather and not washed etc. It's a sad minority but these children are out there.

thanks for those book recommendations spidermama. i have just ordered one. My ds has just turned two and still not had MMR. Me and DP have both been researching over the last few months - him the 'for' and me the 'against'. But it is just sooooooo hard, i genuinely doubt whether i am clever enough to weigh up all the evidence. We have now booked him in for the jab next week but i feel absolutely sick with worry about it. But then before that i felt sick with worry about him catching measles. Mummy2ashton your post resonates a lot. So much of parenting seems to be about playing the odds doesn't it.

Sandcat - I read your message with utter dismay - especially the part which read "lack of common sense by not immunising your child". I have a 4 year old son who has autism. I have also just sat this morning in floods of tears after having to spend 2 hours to get him into the Doctors Surgery to have an immunity test to check if his 1st MMR worked so he doesn't have to have the Booster. This 2 hours was after the 3 hours before trying to get the "magic cream" onto his hands before the blood test. It is not because he is scared of needles, it is because he is scared of strangers touching his hands. This is autism, welcome to our world, and please think before you state that we have a lack of common sense by choosing not to immunise. There are two sides to every story.

just wanted to say, esp to vitomum that the older the child is, the less chance of brain damage from the mmr. i would have waited till ds was two before i got him immunised, except there was a measles outbreak in my area, and even a little boy in my street got it (and he was immunised) and was in hospital with complications.

I agree with Spidermama, I'm opposed to vaccination for reasons other than the MMR controversy, and the more research I've done to try and convince myself it's safe to vaccinate my children, the more I've become sure that the reverse is true.

I see both sides.

I do, however, have a good friend who is in his 50s and works as a social worker.

He contracted measles at 7, it went into meningitis, and he lost his sight completely as well as the hearing in one of his ears.

My mother lost some hearing in her right ear from measles - she is now 65 and that ear has been a problem ever since she had that measles - infections, gets bunged up w/fluid and ear drum perforates, etc. She has grommets in it just now.

She also got pneumonia as a secondary infection from rubella, of all things, she got when she was 17.

Her lungs were permanently scarred.

My chief problem w/vaccination is the half-arsed schedule.

The problem w/vaccines is that they are not effective for life, you HAVE to keep topping them up.

Or risk adults contracting these 'childhood' diseases. Which often render them very, very ill at the least.

Dead or disabled at the worst.

Ever hear of adults getting chicken pox, for example? It's never a matter of just a week spent in calamine cream.

I've seen first hand what it's like for adults to get mumps.

Not a good thing, peeps.

Sandcat I think you'll find the government have stated that research has been done and no link has been found (ask their press office or try the DH website). I worked there during the Andrew Wakefield time and it was sad and depressing watching events unfold. What makes me really angry is that by not immunising their child parents are putting other children at risk. The concept of herd immunity has not been explained. I'm sure you know the exact stats better than me but I thought that unless 85% of children were vaccinated children who have been vaccinated could still catch the various diseases from those who haven't. That makes me angry as I feel I've done my best to protect my children from death/brain damage/deafness/infertility by vaccinating. I'm sorry if anyone reading this with an autistic child feels angry but personally I don't believe there is a link.

One of the students where I work got mumps at 20. The virus attacked her ovaries. She was in horrible pain w/it.

She does not know if/how this will impair her later fertility, if at all.

Another thing thatreally annoys me about the whole imms thing, esp mmr, is the media. All of the newspapers had headlines that linked mmr with autism after the wakefield study. There was a complete media frenzy, and now, after public fear, imms rates dropped and outbreaks of disease the same newspapers go on about the risks of measles etc, as if these risks weren't there when they were printing their stories about mmr. Makes me angry .