advice needed on smoking grandparents

[squigglesmum]

Wonder if anyone could give me an opinion on how old their children would have to be before they were comfortable with them staying overnight in a VERY smoky house?
Having a situation with grandparents who just will not accept that smoking is harmful to babies. They won't smoke "in front of the baby" but won't keep the living room smoke-free, so when we go down in the morning or come back from a trip out, the atmosphere is blue. baby's room is smoke-free of course, as it's our bedroom when we're staying! Tried to discuss it and created huge argument. I'm standing my ground that I won't take small babies for overnight stays (I only have ds1 but hoping for more, so this won't go away in a month or two) but I can't quite get my head round how old I think they should be. Any thoughts?
Apologies, I might not be able to acknowledge any replies straight away as I only get internet access at the weekend, but I'd really appreciate some opinions.

God, I don't know. But I can tell you as a vehement anti-smoker DD of a long time smoking mum, that it doesn't get any easier when your kids are 10 and 11. The smoky atmosphere is no less offensive to you when they are older. The only reason that my mother doesn't smoke in her house is because her partner doesn''t like it (stuff me and my kids' lungs !). GRRRRRRR, but that's a WHOOOOOOOOOOOLE OTHER THREAD

Could you not invite the GPs to stay over at your house instead ? That way they would be living by your house rules and only smoking in the garden etc.

Could you just stay in the summer when they can smoke with the window open?

But I don't think occassional contact with smoke is a terrible thing. Admittedly I am a smoker and our house is not smoke free (we smoke in the office and in the living room after bedtime, but only smoke roll-ups which never seem to produce as much smoke as ordinary fags). But I try to minimise the children's contact with other harmful fumes to compensate: very little painted wood in the house, no fabric softener (both contain some of the major harmful chemicals in smoke); don't go out in traffic much etc etc.

If you live far away and not staying overnight would seriously curtail the amount of time your ds has with his grandparents then I would give in now. If that is not the case, then I think about 1 year.

I have to say that in my experience roll-ups are far smellier than pre-rolled ciggies, sorry !

I hated the fact that my perfect, tiny newborn daughters clothes and hair used to come back smelling of Lambert & Butler. It horrified me, TBH.

Argument has now meant that they've decided they're not welcome at our house, although that's the obvious answer. basically I'm getting a lot of "does that mean that ds will never be able to visit us again" emotional blackmail, which is just nonsense, I don't mind visits at all, just want to avoid prolonged overnight visits while he is so little.

I think you are PERFECTLY within your rights to stipulate conditions of your DSs stay. The conditions are in your infant sons best interests and if they can't either put the fag packet away for 24 hours or smoke outdoors then I would have to throw back the emotional hardball with something like, "I'm not refusing over-night contact at all, BUT I will not have him exposed to that environment. If YOU want him to stay over then have your fags in the garden for ONE NIGHT".

what i'm trying to say is that it is impossible to keep our children away from all dangers - traffic being the main one - and that I don't think that avoiding the occasional stay in a smoky house is worth a big family ruck as long as some precautions are taken.

My mil and her "boyfriend" chain smoke. When they visit us we make them smoke outside (even when it's raining) and when we visit them we stay in a hotel. When we're actually at my mil house, she goes into the kitchen to smoke. I don't think I would ever change that arrangement. I have asthma and as it's genetic, it's a good possibility my children may also have it, so I wouldn't like to subject them to direct smoking.

I won't stay in a smoky house myself, as I have crap lungs, most folks I know who smoke do it outside, esp if they have kids. My son is 10 now and when he stays with his granny he asks her to smoke with the window open or outside as he really hates it.
I would never take a baby to a remotely smoky house either...

I can really empathise with you as I have a constant battle with my inlaws, and my dh - who feels caught in the middle - about this. Although they do make the effort in their own house to smoke in a different room to either me or dd (which I do appreciate), my asthma does get worse and also when we stay over our clothes reek of smoke which I hate. When dd was younger I had a real nightmare trying to stop her from sticking her hands into the full ashtrays

Basically you have 2 decisions - either grin and bear it for the sake of family harmony and tell yourself as SP says - its only for the occassional visit; or tell them you can't do overnight stays - and stay in a hotel instead.

FWIW - we did the first option initially but when I got pg with no2 we decided on a hotel for overnight stays. My inlaws really didn't understand it - and I think they do take it personally. They also think that I am being a bit 'soft', fussy, overly protective etc etc and it does cause a bit of friction. However, when it does come up I point out that I am only trying to do what is best for my child and I hope that as parents they can understand.

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Hi Squigglesmum
I'm with Twiglett. To me, this sounds like an issue of control. My mum smoked for years, but she wouldn't have dreamed of smoking near a baby or having a baby in a room full of smoke. It's almost like a challenge isn't it "this is how we live and we're not going to change it for your finickity standards". But the thing about babies, is that you do have to change to accomodate them - and not just the parents, but the siblings, the aunts, uncles, grandparents, friends - you do have to make allowances, whether it be about smoking, swearing, leaving knives around, copulating on the breakfast bar; whatever it is that the parents of those kids don't want their kids exposed to. And if you don't make concessions to friends or relatives with children, then you can't really expect them to visit you too often. Stand your ground, you're not being unreasonable, and I think your in-laws are, maybe out of a sub-conscious fear of being shifted into the next generation (is that too deep?) I guarantee you that this will be the first of many battles, and if you give in on this one, the future ones will be tougher!

Both my parents smoke and they know my ds twins would not be visiting if I thought for one minute they would smoke in the same room. It is bad enough the smell that lingers anyway let alone what it does to them.

When I was growing up I had lots of throat problems and colds, down to their smoking. So stand your ground squiggles, if they can't see that then they must be very selfish! (And I am talking as someone whose parents are very pro-smoking. If they know it harms then.. the GPs are just in denial, on the offensive because they probably are aware of the effect it has.)

I would not even consider letting my children stay in the house of smokers, not even for the day, let alone overnight! My parents smoked when I was young, not in the house, but often in the car and it nearly made me phyically ill!

I find it strange on this site that people are obsessing about health dangers of various things that may prove to be a problem long term for some people but are far from proven (like butter vs margarine, organic vs nonorganic foods and MMR injections) but then actually need to debate whether passive smoking is harming children when decades of research has proven that it IS harmful and DOES cause disease!

In Australia now it is illegal to smoke in a car if children are in the car. It is illegal to smoke in offices, shops and most eating places and in some states it is even illegal to smoke in pubs, except in a designated smoking room with proper extraction fans!

Hi squirmy, Both of DS3 Nannies (Grandad both died a long time before he was any of our children) smoke and I have never let any of our children into their houses when they are smoking. When we visit my mum I call when we're 10 minutes away to make sure she's not smoking and she never is, infact she'll have every door and window open hours before we arrive and will only smoke outside when we're there and before we arrive, bless her. MIL is a whole other story for lots of issues but I stay well away from her with the children when she's smoking.
I read recently that a smoker will still breathe out cigarette smoke for up to 30 minutes after the the cigarette has finished and call me a neurotic paranoid mother if you like but I have know told them both that they cannot touch or go near DS3 for 30 minutes after the last fag. I know that is ridiculous in some peoples eyes but I loathe the smell and cannot bring myself to waiver in my rules and regulations about smoking.

FWIW MIL didn't believe me when I told her the increased risk of cot death because of passive smoking when we had DS1 nearly 5 yrs ago, she said I was being stupid and irrational but I couldn't care less. We rarely see her and as my mum makes every possible effort our boys have at least one almost non-smelly nannie.

I know there are alot of things that put them at risk but if I can control any of those situations than of course I'm going too.

My SIL "chain smokes" and is of the opinion that "if it's alright for my kids, then it's alright for yours" mentality! So we don't visit!

My DH and her don't get on anyway, so not a problem. Last time we saw them was Christmas 2002 - booked to go out for a meal. She arranged it etc - and booked a smoking table!!!! She was the only smoker out of 18 of us. DH kicked up a fuss and got us moved to a non-smoking!

I hate going to smoky houses - I also have crap lungs, ie asthma and regular bouts of bronchitus. Went to a wedding on 28 Feb - incredibly smoky environment - and as I was there from 3pm to 12am - I have been suffering with my chest ever since. From going to not using my Salbutomol puffer - I am currently using the thing 2/3 times a day!

As I've said I hate smoking and am fully aware of the dangers of passive smoking. However, when it comes to visiting my inlaws and the rest of DH's extensive family it causes real problems as they are all heavy smokers. They too have the mentality that if its OK for their kids then its OK for us too.

But I feel there is not alot that I can do as I can't avoid visiting them in their houses, or big family get togethers in smoke laden venues, and would feel very uncomfortable about telling them not to smoke in their own house. The only option I have left is to remove myself from the room that they are smoking in, and its not always easy to remove dd from the smoky room either. The only consolation I have is that I don't visit them that often. But maybe I'm a bit soft as I don't want to cause family upsets. As it is the few times when I have asked them not to smoke such as when I am pg, or with new baby, and decided not to stay at their house overnight etc has caused snipey comments and DH feels caught in the middle of it all.

I can relate to so much of what has been said. I could recount hundreds of tales with my inlaws stressing me out, here is one of the more outrageous ones...

When DD1 was 18 months we stayed with them at Christmas time. DD1 had a cold and sore throat - no sympathy - they carried on smoking in their kitchen. Being their house, very difficult to say anything. They did open the back door but not for long as it was so cold. DD1?s cold quickly turned into a nasty hoarse cough - irritated by the smoke and to cut a long story short, we ended up taking her to the local hospital where she was given an inhaler and told that the smoke had seriously affected her breathing. Big row with DH in the car on the way back to inlaws - I said either we go home or they don?t smoke in the house. He managed to ask them not to smoke in the house which they rather grudgingly did (no embarrassment or guilt, just slightly irritated that my poor DD1 was inconveniencing them with her cold she had already got!!) Then, the same night, when I finally got her settled down after lots of tears and generally being quite unwell, I go back through to the sittingroom exhausted and my MIL says somthing on the lines of "thank goodness she is in bed, I am dying for a fag and fed up of going outside", goes into the kitchen and lights up!!! I was so upset by her insensitivity, lack of any compassion for her own grandchild that I just went to bed and cried.
DH is a wonderful caring man but has a blind spot when it comes to his parents and absolutely refuses to see my side or to ever support us or his own children over their feelings. We rarely see his parents (Thank God) and try to avoid taling about them as I hate arguing over something that we will never agree on. He just believes I am overreacting and should be more accomodating as it is more important for the children to see their grandparents than to upset his folks so much that they feel too embarrassed to see us (pitiful argument as I don?t think she knows the meaning of embarrassment or sensitivity).

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I have to say I read on a earlier thread about this that the smoke stays on the breath for an hour after the cig so babies should not be held by that person until this time has passed.

I agree it is difficult to ask someone in their own house not to smoke but have no problems not allowing it in my house or garden for that matter. I dont want stubbed cigs in my garden thankyou.
We put the health of our kids before visiting and dont visit people who we know are going to smoke near our kids no matter who they are.
My mum smoked for over 30 years and then went cold turkey 8 years ago when ds was born and hasnt had one since. She felt too dirty to be having a fag one minute and then seeing her grandchild the next.

It's totally up to the individual to smoke, it's their health but I choose not to smoke and dont see why i or my kids should have to breath in othert peoples smoke. I dont go at all with the view about exposing everyso often being a good thing. Is that argument just to lessen smokers guilt at smoking with their kids??

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Hercules!

Another person who doesn't allow smoking in their garden!!!

Most people I know think I'm strange not allowing smoking in my garden. This came about after DS1's Christening Party one summer. I had laid out ashtrays etc but instead of using them, they just chucked their "fag ends" onto the floor.

Next day, I caught DD1 (then 2) about to stick one in her mouth!!

As for visiting smokers homes, not many people I know smoke now - just SIL and I've told her I will not visit her house as it makes me ill and I don't like to put my kids in that environment. The other smokers I know generally go outside so it's not a problem.

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It's only people on dhs family who smoke and dh wont let them either. We've been married 9 years so all know how we feel anyway.
Nothing worse than buts in the garden!

This is interesting - found this whilst I was "Googling" about smoke staying on the breath of a smoker.....

"The risk from inhaled cigarette smoke for a 20 cigarette-a-day smoker, apart from the discomfort due to shortness of breath on the slightest exertion and the greater proneness to colds and coughs, is an average life-shortening of about eight years. Those who complain about air pollution from car exhausts and industrialisation should remember that there are 100,000 particles contained in each cubic centimetre of polluted air; by contrast, when smoking we suck in five billion particles per cubic centimetre of smoke directly through the mouth into the lung, without the protective filtering by the nose."