I am engaged in a royal battle of wills with dd2. Help!

[RhondaJean]

I've posted before about trying to get her to tidy up after herself. She is 9. Her room is awful, I mean really bad, as in cannot see carpet most of the time, washing lying everywhere mixed in with the toys and books (clean AND the ironed stuff I give her to out away) and she sneaks food such as crisps upstairs sometimes which isn't allowed and there will be crumbs and packets there too.

We have tried all sorts. We have bagged and removed all toys until its been tidied. W have cleaned it with her; my friend has come round and helped her tidy it. There are places for everything to go, and it's relatively easy - toys in the toy boxes, books on the shelf, clothes in the drawers. Dirty clothes in the washing and rubbish in the bin. I don't expect it to be perfect, just that she can find the things she needs for school and after school activities and I can get in to Hoover and dust and change the bed.

The only thing that worked in terms of getting her to do it was when I physically sat on her bed with a book all weekend and supervised her doing it, but I don't have the time to do this every weekend and to be quite honest I am not willing to.

She h now been tidying her room every night after school this week and all weekend except for an hour yesterday when we went to the opticians to collect her new glasses. She's on no tv, her tablet has been removed, and she's having no snacks or food treats. I promised to take her and her sister to KFC for dinner tonight as long as the room is tidy, and she has done nothing in it so far so we will still go but she will not be eating, she can have toast when she comes home.

We have talked about it too; I've explained everyone has to muck in and help in this family (DH and I both work full time and are also busy outside work, she has three activities she does we take her to as well, we like to do things together at the weekend). Her sister is 14 and is responsible for her own room and keeps it well, again not perfect but I don't expect that, and also has some other chores she does.

Dd2 is perfectly capable of doing her room. It would take no more than an hour. She is just completely unwilling to. She sits on the middle of the bed and does nothing. She then comes down and lies (this gets on my nerves too) that she has almost finished.

There are no arguments as such, no flash points, she is just hell bent she will not do it and someone else should sort it for her. Sorry this is an epic post but I am hoping beyond hope someone else will have some ideas (beyond binning all her belongings which I am loathe to do but am seriously considering by now).

It's been going on probably for several years and I am out of patience now I know she knows how to do it and is just "at it".

I'd let her live in her own mess and stop stressing about it. I'm surprised her friends wouldn't comment when they come over- peer pressure is way more powerful than mummy pressure...

Alternatively A warning, then permanent removal of the stuff... I'd also put an end to the access of junk food that she can take up to her room.

A - it's her room and her clothes; start teaching her how to iron next time she only has un-ironed clothes.
B - stop buying crisps.

Good that you have offered her a reward as motivation, rather than simply nagging her to do it or berating her.

Perhaps simplistic, but dd is much happier doing chores off by herself if she turns on the radio and/or plays music on her i-pod. Somehow it seems less tedious that way. Would that help your dd?

The only other suggestion I've got is perhaps you could break it up into smaller tasks, and make it a bit of a game - maybe challenge her to spend 15 minutes at a time doing one thing from your list: toys in the toy boxes, books on the shelf, clothes in the drawers. Dirty clothes in the washing and rubbish in the bin. She can take a break in between - maybe a 15 minutes on, 15 minutes off type arrangement? You could visit her room 'in progress' and praise her to the skies and encourage her to keep going so she gets the KFC dinner. Or maybe set up an informal 'competition' between both girls - light-hearted and joking, or course.

Perhaps a bit tedious for you - and yes, at 9 years old she should be able to simply do these things when she's told - but making it a game and/or fun is more pleasant / less stressful than shouting, sitting on her bed, or sitting on her!

Good luck.

I'd take away all her stuff to be honest. I think she needs to be warned that if stuff isn't tidied away within an allocated time, everything on the floor will be bagged up and permanently removed. If she doesn't have the stuff for her activities, that is her problem and she can't go to them.

Wash her school clothes (mine get dressed downstairs and know they have to take their dirty clothes straight to the laundry basket, so no dirty clothes on bedroom ,ever) but refuse to wash anything else unless it is taken to basket.

No food/drink upstairs ever and more than an admonishment if she is caught doing this. I would ban screen time if mine did this as both my DC hate being banned from Minecraft!

I think sometimes a bit of 'shock and awe' parenting is required. If she knows that you WILL stop her doing her activities and WILL bag up her belongings and take them to the charity shop etc, she will soon learn to do it herself.

I would also supervise tidying/putting away of clothes every day before bed. It takes 5 minutes if it's daily and if you know she is naturally untidy she may need extra encouragement and supervision to keep on top of it. It's about creating habits I think. It can take ages before things become ingrained in kids heads as just 'what we do'. However my 6 year old will now put his clothes in the laundry, fold his uniform, clear his breakfast things without being asked etc. DD is 9 and she does the same plus extra jobs as she is older. It took endless bloody reminders to get to that stage though!

Good luck!

I feel like sitting on her!

Music is a good idea. Unfortunately she can't find her mp3 player, or the charger, because of the state of the room. I'm not convinced she would actually do any more with it on anyway!

It's beyond the point where it's okay to say its her room and let it be. Firstly she is only 9 not even a teenager and secondly it impacts on other family members as she is unable to find the items she needs in the mornings / to go to activities or she ends up not having clean school clothes because she hasn't put her shirts in to get washed and everyone else has to deal with the chaos she's caused.

She genuinely doesn't care. She would go out in dirty unironed clothes (there's another battle royal with getting her to take baths but I'm on top of that one!). Punishments of removing items don't bother her. There doesn't seem to be any reward she wants enough to actually put her things away! She will just eat toast she says.

In some ways I admire her unflappable ness, very little in life gets her down or bothers her, but she does need to learn how to look after herself and her belongings! Or do you think at 9 I am pushing too much? The easy thing is to bite the bullet and go do it for her.

Crisps are purchased for everyone, not just her, and I'm not stopping buying them for the rest of us.

She sounds very similar to my middle dd who is now 13. She has Special needs though so we do make allowances.
I have found she always tidies her room better if she is having a friend to play/sleepover.
She needs reminding to do it,as she doesn't actually see the mess.
I can't just say " tidy your room" I need to tell her exactly what needs doing. So I often sit on her bed and tell her each thing that needs doing, wait until it is done, then the next job etc.
I agree you can't just say her room, her mess, because it does impact on the whole family.
You have my sympathy.

Well, seeing that her room is in such a state - I definitely wouldn't go do it for her - but what if you do it with her? Just this once, so it is done and done well. Then it will be up to her to maintain it - which is a far less daunting task.

One other thought: If I announce to dd: 'after lunch it is time to tidy your room' , and then remind her after lunch, it will get done. By identifying a specific time to do a task, she will do what I ask. If it is a general 'keep your room tidy' she never gets 'round to doing it.

I was this child. I drove my mother mad. However I can tell you what I learned from it, which was that the more I was nagged, the worse the room got. Funnily enough, as soon as I moved out, I kept neat freak standards and still do. However when I visit my mother's I'm still tempted to dump dirty clothes on the floor. That nagging is some powerful shit.

The point being that it sounds like nagging her isn't working and while I appreciate what you say about how her chaos disrupts the rest of the family, you might find that's a temporary stage because in time, as her friends come over and make her feel embarrassed about living in a pigsty, and she misses out on things because of her chaos, she will indeed sort it out herself.

You are not alone. I have an 8 year DS who sounds similar. It is a real source of stress between us. I offer to help, timed 15 mins, so that we ought to be able to get most of it done, and then I end up doing most of it, so am in a really bad mood. I have tried taking toys away permanently. DS just shrugs and tells me that his dad (my ex) will buy him new . We have all the right storage, places for everything. I now think less is definitely more so am trying to get the family to buy less toys,things at Christmas, birthdays etc. Looking at some of the helpful posts - thank you!

The "special time" has been every night after school -we have cajoled, bribed, begged and pleaded (pretty much). Get it done after dinner then you can watch x with us on tv, or we can go do y, or make something.

Lily you are right about the nagging. I've tried the bribery with regards to the friends - ie if you tidy up x can come for tea or we can ask y round to play and she still doesn't do it. Perhaps I am taking the wrong approach perhaps I just get them round to tell her.

It's really bad none of us are the tidiest but I said before I am worried she's got the start of hoarding tendencies. I've often worried if she does have some slight SN, I have never articulated this before, she was 2 months preemie and she does seem younger in some ways than some of her contemporaries but she's smart as a whip, top groups in school, great hand eye coordination, gets on really really well with everyone and as I said it never up nor down so it's hard to articulate what I mean, just that's he's happy with " younger " pastimes. I don't want her growing up too fat either, I just want her to be happy and whatever niggling worry I have isn't impacting on her beyond this inability to take what i think is age appropriate responsibility (homework baths etc are hard hard work too).

My 2 DDs weren't the tidiest children and neither am I. I

I kind of let them get on with it, until their rooms got to the state your DDs is in.

I think by that stage it's a health and saftey issue so I'd say- either clean it up in the next hour or I'm going in with a bin bag. That did work every time, as I said I would give everything away in the bag. If your dd won't do it after threatening that, then she's made of quite stern stuff.

Are you the one "nagging her" each time? In that case get your DH or maybe your dd1 to talk to her and ask her why she's willing to have this upset? That its affecting the whole family and she's being rather selfish and missing out in fun stuff.

I very much agree with breaking it down into smaller tasks, as when it gets that bad, it can seem overwhelming. Be specific, suck as "put all your washing in the basket" and see if that works better.

Perhaps I am taking the wrong approach perhaps I just get them round to tell her

I'm not there's any 'right approach'! However I know that peer shaming can be far more effective at that age. Even now I'm embarrassed if people visit and my house is less than immaculate.

Crisps are purchased for everyone, not just her, and I'm not stopping buying them for the rest of us.

Yes - you stop buying them and everyone suffers. That's the point.

I'm probably being thick here, but why does it get into this state?

So you do a massive tidy and clean as a one off then at the end of the day each day from then on there is a qui k today beige bed, that would take 10 mins?

M

Bloody auto correct!

There is a quick tidy before bed each day?

Possibly a nightly, weekly and monthly list would be good. So on the nightly list could be,

1. Put all toys on the floor into boxes (or whatever storage you have) - if she likes to keep some toys or projects out, have a very small table where she can keep one item or set or project for the next day

1. Put clean clothes away

1. Put washing in basket

1. Put books onto shelf

1. Fold uniform and get book bag ready

Weekly (maybe on Sunday night):

1. Clean windows

1. Wipe window sills

1. Clear out under the bed and put away

Monthly (maybe on the first of every month to make it easy)

1. Pick at least one toy or thing to bin, if not functional/in good condition, or bring to charity shop, if in good condition

1. Hoover everywhere, including under bed

1. Tidy wardrobe and drawers and get rid of rubbish

It can be very difficult, if you're not naturally organised and tidy, to keep on top of things. It's also hard to know where to start, esp when it's already in a horrendous state. My daughters are not naturally tidy and esp with my youngest I find that it overwhelms her. If I make her a list she powers right through it, though.

Help her, only one more time, to get everything sorted, so that she can start as she means to go on. Make sure she has enough practical storage. Help her to get rid of all the rubbish and anything that no longer works or is broken or missing half its pieces. If she has a hard time letting go of things take a photo, stick it in a notebook and have her write a little note about the item and what it reminds her of, sort of like a memory journal.

Once the room is tidy, it will be much easier for her to stay on top of it If you are strict about making her follow each list daily/weekly/monthly. You could put a timer on for fifteen minutes for each list, she will hopefully easily be able to finish the tasks within that time. Maybe a bit longer for the monthly one, like half an hour.

Think of something she likes that you can use as an incentive. Does she have a favourite magazine she could earn weekly if she tidies her room every night, for example? Or a later bedtime on Friday night after she has done her weekly list, and once a month an afternoon to do something of her choice with you?

Clutter is often a reflection of a cluttered mind - is she a bit chaotic and perhaps just busy in her head? If so, a tidy space will likely help her to feel better in herself and more in control of her environment and of her life, once she is in the habit of maintaining it.

Good luck, I know it's a difficult battle.

She's quite remarkable at the speed which she can disintegrate a room into a tip. Ie on sunday night her room can be fine and by Monday night a pit. I agree the washing doesn't appear overnight though. We do need to check up on her more but I will say to her, did you do x y and z and she will say yes and I take it on trust she has done. Her room is on a different level so I don't walk past it while bobbing about the house, she will tell me it's done and then if I go to see her at bed time and it's a pit again, there's the option of her getting back up over tired and probably hysterical or letting her sleep and do it tomorrow and this whole thing starting all over.

Ribena, I don't want to suffer, I like my crisps but I get your point. I will try to find a stash place she won't know about.

Holger that is really useful. I think I might do a star chart again and put that list on it (plus maybe tooth rushing )

She is wonderfully creative, loves making things, writing stories, and yes her mind is always full. Shes also been in a rush from the moment she was conceived! I don't want to change who she is, just for her to learn to look after things and hopefully not grow up and be found underneath a pile of newspapers half eaten by cats in her spare room.

I'm going to do that chart from your list tomorrow and the incentive will be a magazine. When we go food shopping next Sunday if she has everything ticked off each day. The weekly one we can do on Friday nights before we watch some tv and I'll think about the monthly one.

I honestly think it would be worth doing a nightly tidy together, she would probably thrive on the one to one time it gives.

Ask her which daily task she is going to do first and which one she would like you to do - then take it from there.

I know my incredibly untidy youngest she gets it from me would gladly tidy if I was involved, she likes the company if nowt else!

I thought she might be a creative type. It's very hard to bother with mundane clutter when your mind is busy on adventure all the time. But try to explain to her that disorganisation leads to stress and feeling like you are never ready for what life throws at you. Knowing where your things are helps a lot. Not having to hunt for your things to get out the door every day feels good

Oh I forgot a very important one on the weekly list:

Rubbish in the bin

• don't leave anything off the list if you want it done, no matter how common sense it is...

Uh, I meant nightly list, of course.

I was wondering whether you could introduce her to Flylady or other decluttering websiteS? Don't they have tips for what to do if you only have the emotional energy for 15 mins tidying?

Could you use a timer and set challenges eg everything between the shelf and the window put away in 20 mins.

Sorry, I see Holger has made far more detailed and practical suggestions ( which I am totally stealing).