I hate having to be a parent to ds1

[WinkyWinkola]

Everything is met with conflict, defiance, drama, back chat.

Every single request I make of him is a problem.

Hes 8. He's been like this for as long as I can remember.

He's had a year of counselling which saw some improvement but not much.

I find him exhausting and wearing. I wake up every morning just dreading having to deal with him. I go into his room bright, cheerful and breezy and he's still the same.

It baffles me because to be this way takes so much effort and energy - more than being pleasant.

He still doesn't seem to understand that there are consequences to his unpleasant behaviour. He seems genuinely surprised when we punish him for it.

My other dcs aged 6 and 3 understand consequences. He just seems to relish being as uncooperative and as unpleasant as possible.

At school he's an angel. On play dates he's amazing. We are all so relaxed and relieved when he's not around.

I don't get it. And frankly I'm so tired and worn down by it that I don't really care why he does it anymore. I am actually looking forward to when he is 18 and I can get him to leave the family home.

I know that sounds harsh but I challenge anyone to live with such hostility day in, day out for years and not wish it to end.

That sounds so difficult and so draining, and I don't blame you at all for feeling so desperate.

Are you getting any support from school or CAMHS, or any personal support for yourself (friends, family or professional)?

I doubt I have any advice that you haven't heard a dozen times over, but I am more than willing to be a listening ear so you can vent if necessary. {{{hugs}}}

Sympathies.

My DS2(9) is like that and always has been.
Not ALL of the time, but v often and I recognise what you are saying about everybody being more relaxed when he is not around.

With my DS it is quite clear that his hostile/defiant/angry/aggressive behaviour stems from really low self-esteem and poor communication skills - I am not sure why or why him (he is one of 4 boys).

We've had good support from the therapeutic counsellor attached to his school - is that an option for you? She is part of the Primary Care MH Team. She mainly did confidence building stuff with him ("What are you good at?") and some anger management (thinking about consequequences of his behaviour on others) and it did help and made him more self-aware.

Like your DS mine has no behavioural issues at school or at other people's houses - I get complimented on what a pleasure he is to be around. Which is of course nice to hear (at least he knows how to behave) but why on earth does he not do it at home/with us when it would make our and, crucially, HIS life so much easier and more pleasant.

I feel your pain.

CAMHS not an options he's so well behaved at school.

He's very articulate and I'm told by the school, he's reasonably clever.

He gets loads of praise for good school work, being helpful and kind to his siblings etc - we are so pathetically grateful for these flashes of kindness and good behaviour. We probably lay the praise on a bit thick.

It troubles me that whenever he plays with the younger dcs, one of them always ends up crying. The dogs scuttle away from him ASAP.

I guess some people are naturally of a sunny disposition and others are just surly grumps.

Maybe when he's a teen he'll be amazing at home.

Have you looked into Pathalogical Demand Avoidance syndrome?

Also, have you read "The Explosive Child"? I've found it an amazing insight into my DS' behaviour and how to manage it (as have lots of MNers - I had it recommended to me on here).

You are going to hate me for this, but... Is there ANYTHING you can do with him, just you and him, which could be enjoyable for both of you, and which could help you bond a bit more ( tell me to shut up if that sounds impossible) I'm just feeling how sad it must be to hardly even like your son, and he must be aware of it too, horrible situation :(

It's not the same but I worked with kids who did have behaviour probs and they got into such a cycle of thinking of themselves as "difficult" that it was like a self fulfilling prophecy, they kind of didn't know how to get back. I really hope there's a way to rebuild the relationship x

We do karate together every week. 30 mins drive there and back. He's fine then. Very subdued and submissive in the class.

We used to do mother-son, daddy-daughter days but they've tailed off actually as we've been so swamped with house move, house renovations.

The drama just wears you down.

Does he hurt his siblings/the dog?

Can you get a CAMHS referral via your GP as it's not a school issue?

He has hurt our first dog when he was a pup. Bending snout and tail, holding toes apart.The pup used to flee from him. I used to never ever let them be alone once I realised what was going on despite my having very stern words with ds1 and punishment.

As an 18 month old dog, he steers clear of ds1.

We now have another pup as well. 14 weeks. She scuttles away from him too but I've never seen him hurt her. I again never leave her alone with him.

He's very rough with his siblings. He'll drag them about on the trampoline by a limb for example, or shove them. But then I've seen him show great concern when one of them has fallen off their bikes. Perhaps that's just older brother stuff. My brothers were rough with each other and me.

The GP told me that because he knows how to behave in other situations there is clearly nothing that the good people at CAMHS can help with.

He also still wets the bed. We've been to the GP for that and he's now on some tablets for the last 3 days. Not working yet but we shall see.

Thank you for your kindness and non attacking. I really do not enjoy being his mother very much.

Do you think he may have ADHD? It could account for his energy, his moods, his incomprehension for consequences etc?

You poor thing.

It sounds like he's hurting his siblings and your dogs (dogs are hugely trusting and don't run away for nothing).

Please don't think his behaviour is just the older siblings thing. My elder son is as gentle as a lamb with his brother/younger cousins and what you're going through sounds much more than that.

I hope you get the support and help you (and he) need.

It's sounds torturous

Perhaps there is something else going on, I wonder if you'd do this quick questionnaire and see how many yes' he scores

www.inpp.org.uk/intervention-adults-children/inpp-assessments/child-screening-questionnaire/

Long shot but it's something that could help.

Any chance you can change doctors? CAMHS isn't about learning to behave. Your son is clearly deeply unhappy for some reason. You have my absolute sympathy and I feel your frustration.

In the school I work in one thing I try (not always successfully!) to live by is "all behaviour is communication". What is he trying to tell you with this behaviour? The professionals at CAMHS would try to unpick this with you.

Yes, I do think some people are blessed with more sunny dispositions naturally, and other are not. However that should not give dispensation to behave cruelly or inconsiderately or even 'just' rudely towards other.
I really know what you mean when you say you do not enjoy parenting your DS .

I tried 'lovebombing' my DS earlier this year and took him alone for a weekend to the Big Smoke. It was great in that there were no siblings to distract me or him and nobody to be wound up by. His behaviour was still at times challenging - basically he would have been happy to stay in our hotel room and watch TV rather than go out and see what London has to offer. So we had a major set-to on day1 just to get him out and then he (and I) had a ball .
I had also planned to take each of my kids out in turn on their own every Saturday (that DH is not working...) and do whatever they wanted with them. They declined .

I think you should ask again what support is available for him - CAHMS are not there to teach behaviour but to figure out what is behind difficult behaviour IYSWIM. I understand that his behaviour is school is good, but have you asked what the school can offer? Or Primary Care MH Services (CAHMS here is Secondary Care and there may be tier 'below' that available to you)?

I second pushing for a referral to CAHMS. At worst, if it is the wrong place for him, they will have a far better idea than your GP, where he should go next.

I really feel for you. My dsis is going through exactly the same with her ds. He behaves perfectly at school and at play dates too. He is 8. As a relative outsider, I have observed that he is a naturally difficult child who has a tendency to be quite bossy and who goes into a sulk if things don't go his way, which can make his cousins not want to play with him sometimes. I think he feels jealousy towards his little sister who is naturally of an easier disposition - happy to play alone for long periods or alongside cousins with lots of cooperation. The problem as I see it as that quite understandably, people (extended family included) tend to gravitate towards my niece as she is more pleasant to interact with. Her parents also appear to offer her more physical affection in a more natural easy way, and speak to her in a more affectionate tone. I think it's human nature to do that - it's bloody hard trying to be pleasant with someone who is stroppy and bossy!

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that as an observer, it's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy as someone mentioned up thread. He acts badly because he is jealous of the attention on his sister, people give MORE attention to his sister, his behaviour escalates etc etc. Of course, i could never say this to my sister, well, not unless she came to me and specifically asked my opinion (she hasn't yet). Have you asked extended family to HONESTLY but gently give you their version of the situation as they see it? You are in the thick of it so may not be able to see what is going on, but extended family might.

It does sound that you dis, like my nephew, is very unhappy and it's coming out in his behaviour. My nephew CAN be very good company - he is very bright and has a sense of humour, but once he has been slighted, as he perceives it, then his mood turns dark.

I know you go to karate class together, but it doesn't provide much opportunity to just chill and enjoy the activity whilst letting the conversation flow naturally. Does he like museums etc? Could you or his dad take him on trips like that regularly and just TALK to him without the hassle of the little ones being there? Or go for a walk with just you and him and chat about what you see? I really think that for my nephew this would solve a lot of the problems - it would satisfy his need for more one-to-one attention and focus, and also rebuild the rubbish relationship that seems to be developing between him and his parents. Just break the cycle that "he is annoying and unpleasant."

Of course, you may already have tried this, but in my sister's situation, it kind of seems obvious to me and others where they are going wrong.

My ds2 was a bloody hard baby till he was about 3. Dh was obviously favouring ds1 who is naturally well-behaved and level-headed. I am just grateful that for the most part, ds2 grew out of his moodiness to some extent enabling dh to see his good points and allow them to develop a close relationship. I just think that you need to maybe mentally list all the good points that your ds had and remind yourself of them whenever he is being difficult. Try not to mentally label him as "the difficult one". Or let him overhear conversations about how you find him difficult (as my sister does - I am constantly shushing her when she complains about him when he is within earshot. She says that he can't hear, but I know kids and they pay attention to EVERYTHING.)

He may probably always be of a more moody disposition and there's not much you can do about that. What you CAN do is let him see that you accept him as an individual and while you won't pander to bad behavior just to appease him, you recognise him as an important and valuable part of the family.

Wise words from you all. Thank you. So grateful. I will heed them.

depending on how it works in your area CAHMS may not be the people you need to see tbh

round here they won't see children with autism, for example, because it's not a mental health issue (even if said child is showing symptoms of mh issues grrrr)

we went to our GP with concerns about DS1 and were referred to the community paediatricians at our local child development centre. YOu need your GP to find out who the right person is, or refer you to the paediatrician who might know (if it isn't them).

in some areas CAHMS do diagnoses of things like ASD/ADHD etc, and in other areas it's the paediatricians...

ANYWAY, you can get referred to either of them regardless of behaviour in school. I know, because we did! DS1 used to be lovely in school, who wouldn't refer him themselves because of that. But your GP definitely can

I am reading this thread with interest. My 5 year old is often like this.

I do love her and we were very closely bonded when she was a baby(although she was difficult) but she is defiant, rude, obstinate. We had a huge argument this morning and I'm afraid to say she won again. She grinds me down.

She is an angel at school. I think she responds well to a punishment/reward system. Ironic as I decided not to do this at home.

The other day I said "you wouldn't speak this way to Miss Simpson (her teacher) would you?"

She said " but you won't put me on time out".

But then you said your younger two understand consequences which suggests you do have boundaries in place at home.

It's horrible when you feel your personal happiness is dependant on your child's mood.

Did you have PND or was there any early trauma that could have caused attachment difficulties?

It sounds that he struggles most at home and now things are intractable... the tragedy of these situations is that basically he's trying to communicate something to you but is doing it in such an obnoxious way you can't hear what he needs you to hear.

This behaviour has a function.

My sister was very much like this. She is in her 30's now and generally a normal popular lass with a husband and a job and all the usual marks of adult success. She can still sometimes be that intractable difficult self I remember for her WHOLE childhood.

She says now she felt deeply unloved and unlovable, full of fury and rage. She has ongoing problems with severe anxiety and depression.

What happened with the counselling?

I'm going to say this and it will sound harsh but I say it with every empathy and compassion for your weariness because I remember what it was like. This is going nowhere. There will be no easy resolution at 18, you are his mum for life. He needs serious help NOW and so do you all. Throw whatever you can at it. Therapy, behavioural intervention or whatever. If you think it is hard now, realise that at 8 you still have ultimate control. But time is running out. Ignore the stories your mind tells you about how it shouldn't be like this, he should be different, you just want it to stop. This is your life and you have to take firm and decisive action, no excuses, to turn this around. Don't paint him as Damien Omen. He's just a very unhappy boy. Perhaps there are undiagnosed SEN, perhaps not. Perhaps it is mental health... or not. BUt YOU need help and support to do what's right and not what's easy. You are giving up somewhere inside. It will come to no good. You can't change or control him ultimately but you do have a choice to love him unconditionally and find a way to respond to him from your highest place as a mother and a human being. That's not to depict him as the spawn of the devil. You are losing compassion for him and its understandable but not to be given into under any circumstances. The suffering it can cause you all to give up is beyond compare.

Hugs.

When he was born, I did have trouble bonding.

I couldn't believe he was my child. I was delighted but disbelieving.

Unfortunately there was someone else who was very keen on taking him off me at every opportunity. I really really really believed this person could take my baby from me for good or at the very least bond with him over me.

I became very anxious and tense. I really think it affected my being able to freely invest emotionally in my son.

I eventually found my courage and roared, "Back off!" and got back to normal.

It's interesting. Ds1 has been having nightmares these past few nights. I get him, take him to the loo and bring him into bed with me and dh.

His behaviour these past few days has been really good. Perhaps he feels more loved?

Working9While5, can you ask your sister what she wanted from her parents as a child?

Where did they lack for her?

What SPECIFICALLY could they have done to make things better for her?

Thank you all for your wise words.

I'm rereading the thread now and digesting.

Ds is like this and has gradually got worse. Unfortunately my nephew is the same and so are all my friends sons.

I don't know how to handle it, ds is very skilled in making me feel guilty and I'm always questioning whether I'm the problem. Other parents compliment me when he goes to their houses and he is popular with the teachers at school.

My friends ds is an articulate mature pleasant boy when he comes to our house and yet my friend is in tears every day because of his behaviour at home. We must be going wrong somewhere but I don't know where.

My brother was and still is like this. He is in his late twenties and he is the reason that I moved out of my parents home when I was a teen. I very rarely visit even now. He has always been a nasty bully. Physical and mental bullying not just to me bit to my mum as well. He is loud, rude, spoilt and totally unpleasant to be around, I completely understand what you mean about the day to day hostility OP.

And the funny thing is he has such a good, interesting job that involves working with royalty however at home he lies on the couch in his boxers, hogging the tv, whilst on the laptop and his phone. He snarls and shouts if anyone challenges him.

For my brother his bad behavior was in part due to drugs so not much advice for OP just to let you know I understand and know how unbelievably hard it is day to say x

I agree you need some specialist input, whether CAMHS or community paediatricians. I'm a GP and tbh there can be quite a bit of overlap between those services. Sometimes we refer to one and they come back to us to say the other service would be more suitable. Either way your GP can sort that out. Bed wetting at 8yo isn't entirely rare but often has an underlying reason, particularly if the child was previously dry. If they have never been dry at night then it can be physiological. Paediatrics deal with bed wetting - nocturnal enuresis - and will likely have a special nocturnal enuresis clinic, which will include community paediatrician and nurses who take time to try to figure out what the cause is. It sounds like there is more going on with your son than simply older sibling behaviour or grumpy personality. Does he have friends? Does he interact well with them? He may behave well at school but do they say he integrates well with his peers, no problems with other children that you know of? If I were you I would go back to your GP, or see a different GP if they weren't helpful regarding referral, and ask for a specialist referral to whichever service they feel most appropriate.