Why can't I go out and leave my 3 year old asleep on his own in the house?

[FrannyandZooey]

Don't worry, I am not about to do this. But I have been musing about risk and safety recently and I am wondering if this really is as terribly unsafe as we all think it is. He doesn't wake up and will be asleep for 90 mins or more. Even if he did, he is a sensible child and is not going to fall down the stairs or drink bleach or anything. He would be worried that I was not there (which is my main reason for not doing it).

I know the argument is "what if there was a fire?"

But there isn't a fire, is there? How many fires start at random when there is no-one in the house but a toddler, fast asleep? I can see there is a small risk here - but it seems tiny to me. How does it compare with taking children out in the car? Crossing the road? Air travel? Being savaged by a dog?

As I say, please don't think I am about to go out and leave him - I'm not. But can someone explain to me why this would be absolutely unacceptable for me to do so, because I'm not getting it.

Elf I was born in 81 too and had very different experiences to you. I was out playing on my own at 3 out of sight, was left alone at home at aound 7 or 8 looking after my younger brother while my mum went to the shops and at around 6 was out to play first thing and not seen again until teatime and we were in a big city.
I have left dd (5) asleep in bed and gone to the shop, admittedly the shop is next door and I'm gone only 5 mins but I really don't see a problem with it. What could happen in those five minutes that couldn't happen if I was sat downstairs watching the telly, or taking the bins out or sitting in the garden? all out of earshot.
I think we do have a very strange view of what is and isn't safe when it comes to our kids.
I would imagine it's actually worse for me to be sat in the garden out of earshot for hours than to be gone 5 mins to the shop, but nobody would have a problem with me sat in the garden would they, or would they!?

Christie, thanks for your thoughts - I do want to make it absolutely clear that leaving my 3 year old alone in the house is not something I am considering doing. I just wanted to discuss the ins and outs of doing so, and the whole issue of risk v. freedom. Your posts didn't make it clear whether you realised that, or if you had read the rest of the thread.

I do agree with you about not being safe from prosecution because the law does not state an age. I think we are all more or less agreed that a 3 year old is not capable of being safely left alone in the house for any period of time.

However I feel uncomfortable about this statement:

"a few seconds/minutes of carelessness can lead to a lifetime of regret"

I don't think most of the situations mentioned here are 'carelessness'. I think if a parent has made a reasonable assessment of risk and decided that the situation is reasonable then they should not be castigated if something goes wrong.

As we have discussed, we all do take risks with our children: we take them in the car, (children have died following road accidents), we leave them in childcare (children have been abused and injured while in childcare). I don't think many people would believe it is a sensible reason not to take a child in a car or send them to childcare, "because it is not worth the risk". Yet the risk of doing this and the risk of leaving a sleeping child in the house / allowing them to play out of your sight in the park are probably about the same, i.e. negligible.

I suppose it's a question of whether you want to take the risk or not. I think everyone agrees there is a risk but some people see it as tiny and not worth worring about wheras others see it as a risk that doesn't have to be taken so why take it. I am in the second camp plus I have a child who is not that sensible. It may have something to do with my upbringing where several risks were taken and not even recognised.

I mentioned earlier that I grew up on a farm. Well most farms have Shotguns and my Father was not one for taking precautions it was easily accessible in the house. I was left in the house on my won once. My Dad and brothers were in the fields. Someone came to the door and I was terrified. You guessed it I went and got the shotgun and shouted at the man to go away ( I must have watched too many films). I was very young too. I don't think it was loaded.

Elf, I don't understand why a car accident is "unexpected", and a fall of a slide also "unexpected", but something going wrong from leaving a child alone is not "unexpected". I think all these are accidents, and unfortunate, but not necessarily that different.

I am still quite freaked out, frankly, by the article I linked to saying seat belt laws lead to more fatalities, as drivers feel safer, and drive faster. I have read similar arguments elsewhere (from sensible books, not strange websites). As a cyclist and pedestrian, drivers driving more dangerously is quite scary to me.

The definition of an accident is an unforseen event, and it us not an accident if somebody is negligent. Leaving a three year old child on their own in the house (asleep or awake) and expecting them to be okay, not play with matches, not try to find where you are, not have an "accident" with any of the hundreds of things in the house that can be dangerous if not dealt with properly, imo that makes the parent negligent and therefore it cannot be classed as an accident.
My posts have been in response to the OP question.
Leaving a three year old child alone in the house is irresponsible and it makes me upset thinking about it.
Just my opinion though, what do I know?

I did misread your thread as considering it, or jumped to that conclusion for which I apologize. It is a good discussion because it has made me think about these issues. For me, leaving a child alone while asleep is something I cannot do. My mantra re lifetime of regret is to myself when I am so tired I just want to let something go by that I shouldn't, so I say it to motivate myself to act, even though I so want to just stay where I am and rest. I was a bit preachy in my posts but dont' mean to sound like I am judging. Believe me, I have been careless, and even when diligent, things have gone wrong. I have seen babies fall wtih moms standing right beside them. but my point was, don't take unnecessary risks that you don't have to. I do appreciate this discussion because one is always weighing risks and trying to make the right decision.

I wanted to add, I also appreciate the respectful tone of this thread. There are very different viewpoints expressed in many ways but no one is insulting. I am learning from it. Thanks all!

Where I live we have a communal car park which is just round the side of the house. One day I had to take ds' buggy to the car as I had no one around to help me. I put ds in his cot with one or two toys to keep him quiet so that no one would know he was there(although looking back this was probably not a good idea as he could have fallen on to them), locked the door, ran to the car and then ran back again. This was probably the scariest thing I have ever done and from that day forward, always made sure the buggy was in the car.

F&Z you were talking on Saturday (!!) about letting your ds play out of sight and your friend being uncomfortable...I think I too would be uncomfortable about letting my ds out of sight, but I think that's more about me than about him! I have a paranoid streak that would make me follow him even at a distance to keep an eye. OK, he's 19mths at the moment, but I'm talking about later when he's around 3. I don't think it necessarily thwarts an adventurous young spirit to have mummy within eyesight, if you're 6 inches behind them then yes it might, but as long as they are within eyesight (and for this paranoid mum, probably also within dashing distance!) then you're not cramping their style and are keeping a watchful eye at the same time.

I know though that it all depends on the child, the mum, the location (how safe, how familiar etc). Dashing distance is important for us as although we live in a rural area there are lots of hazards (including mini ones obviously I don't let him play near cliffs!) around even in the open spaces.

I agree I would be watching a 19 m o like a hawk. There are too many insane things they might suddenly choose to do and they have no personal sense of danger.

There is a huge gulf between 19 months and 3 years. Ds has a huge independent streak and has often been in tears because I won't go home and leave him in the park by himself, or let him run out of sight somewhere I don't feel comfortable, ot let him go out somewhere by himself when we are at home. I give him the utmost freedom that I can while still feeling reasonably comfortable - I let him run out of sight in the park for a bit, within specific boundaries, I let him play in the front garden with me sitting inside, I let him sit in the car by himself 'driving' it, and I let him go out of the supermarket by a different entrance (30 foot from the other one) and meet me at the front.

It seems to be a genuine need for him to have some freedom from me and gives him great satisfaction when he is allowed to do these things. I feel giving him a chance to show he is trustworthy, within limits, has got to be good for his self-esteem and his developing super-ego. I don't think children can ever learn to be responsible for their own safety if they are never given the chance to do so.

However you are exactly right when you say every child, mother and situation is different, kitbit!

Agree Christie this is has been one of the best threads I have ever been on, in terms of respectful debate.

F&Z I just wanted to say thank you for starting this thread - it has really made me think about some things that were previously kind of instinctive not thought out IYSWIM. I have to say that, having thought about it I am of course totally right - but it is good to thrash things out once in a while.

So, what is teh next theoretical question for a good thrash then?

I will let you know when inspiration strikes

Franny, you'll be a big fan of the extended bfeeding breeds clingy children argument then

"Mummy, I might bloody love you and all that, but bugger off and leave me in the park right this minute, OK?"

Sounds v clingy to me

LOL, yes

And the "if you let them sleep in your bed you will never get them out" - he virtually hitch hiked to Ikea and bought the bed himself

I am sure he would be seen as clingy compared to some children, though. He's not totally happy about the idea of staying by himself at nursery, which we are introducing at the moment. Although, thinking about it, he is in fact fine about doing it, it's just the idea that bothers him.

He spent the first 2.5 years of his life attached to my nipple, I think, but he is certainly not clingy now

F&Z, my DS1 certainly has the same issue about trust and independence. There's a particular part of our route home from school, where you can go under a road either by the canal (next to it, not on it, obviously), or via a rather horrible pee-stenchy underpass.

DS1 always wants to go via the underpass, and I must go via the canal. It's only a few metres, I guess, and it's fine.

Only DS2 (23 months) will demand to go via the pee-stenchy underpass as well, if it's just the two of us. (I don't mind him going with his brother.)

The only time I've had a hard time leaving DS1 with someone other than me, was when a relatively green nanny took both boys, and got into a huge fight with DS1 because he wanted to bike ahead a bit, and she didn't trust him to.

DS1 doesn't expect me to leave him at the park on his own, but he does expect to be essentially unsupervised.

What a fantastic thread - I am imporessed at how considered and even tempered it has remained, with thoughtful analysis of the different aspects of the debate.

I think at the end of the day, parents have to make thier own judgement about the relative risks that face their children.

Dh and I happen to share a "relaxed" apporach, that others may not feel confomrtable. What will be interesting is if, in years to come, ds is more independent becasue we have let him have more freedon - or was that just in his nature anyway.

We let him have a lot of freedom alreadsy and have done so for some time 9he is 5.5) - but in fact, as a result of this thread, I am going to give him more freedom, for example, letting him post letters (acorss the road that he already crosses to visit his friend, and then arounf the corner - probably about 5 minutes there and back) - althugh as dh siad, "not important letters" (ie we are more worried about him losing the ltter than anything happening to him).

Actually, I did once go to said post box when ds was about 3 months old and asleep at home. He was a good sleepr, and I was confident that he wouldn't wake up in the 5 minites I was out.

I'm also going to start letting him make sandwiches on his own, using a knife under supervision. Might help him to eat better if he has mde them himself!

We all make our won judgements - whether or not to use stairgates, when to put kids in (what kind of) booster seats, can they go in the garden on thier own, watch TV on thier own, eat the remanants of cake mix with raw egg in it.....

It never crossed my mind, wehn ds was abour 2, and an early riser (I'm not ), to get up with him to go and sit in the living room while he watched TV. He had learnt to put in the video and turn on the TV, so we left him to it. Yes, it was a TV babysitter - but I was not about to get up and "play actively" with him at 6.30/7 in the morning at weekends. Yet I remember reading a thread on MN where the parents took it in turn to watch their kids when they got up at this time. Different stokes for different folks.

It also never corssed my mind to take ds out of his child seat on a petrol forecourt, when I was paying for petrol.

I've told the story now many times of how I used to go to a ballet class by public transport on my own from the age of about 8. I am determined to give ds the same freedom and ability to learn how judge risk for himself. But I can see how in this modern era, with awareness of litigation, social services and "other people's perceptions", it is easy to feel uncomfortable and be worried.

I agree with frannyandzooey about clinginess ( if that is the word!?) my 3rd child ( now 5 ) was like an extension of my own body for the first 2 years of his life but they suddenly seem to get over this and need their own space.

Hi F&Z - I agree - now dp is working 3 evenings a week I often feel stuck in the house and can't get out for silly but important things - like milk (or chocolate!) The other day I was wondering would it be sooooo terrible if I nipped to tescos - 5 mins away - so I'd be gone for about 15 minutes in total. Ds's never wake up etc.etc... But it's the sod's law thing that makes me not - it would be bloody typical that the minute I stepped out of the door one of them would get a temperature and need Calpoling, or something.

During the day we're starting to give ds1 who's 4 a bit more freedom - he plays outside, usually in our yard but occasionally on the pavement outside our door with some 'friends' he's made. It's a really hard combination for us of what we feel relatively safe about, or at least not petrified, and what we know is good for him particularly as he's a shy little thing and we're really pleased he's started making friends.

I agree with everyone that's said we all make our own risk judgements but can children of this age actually make risk judgements for themselves. What are the consequences for their first error of judgement?! (However am unsure what age this risk judgement would be OK?! 8!)
I believe that I am responsible for their care at all times. It's up to me to ensure they are safe and the moment I leave the house and they are left inside I cannot do that.
Of course there are the 1 in a million risks like the house burns down but there is also a stumble on the stairs(most accidents are in the home), lock yourself out and can't get back in, get caught in traffic etc..
At the end of the day some adults are risk takers and some are not (in all aspects of our lives). I'm afraid I'm the overprotective parent by these standards. My husband fills the car with petrol as I wont leave my toddler and baby unattended, my baby gets out the car in all weathers when I collect my child from nursery (parking outside door, max.10min activity) and I would have nightmares about a 4yr old playing on the pavement outside alone. The world is full of nutters and you don't know whose door step they live on. When my children are older I'd rather have a house full of children than my children on the street. But I do see that some people would see me as MAD!!

just latched on to this thread so haven't read all posts but reminded me of when my mum and dad-who in actual fact were pretty responsible parents usually-left me in bed one night to go with their neighbours to their house for a drink.i woke up, opened door and ran into the estate screaming and knocking on peoples'doors. eventually,someone let me in to their house but they didn't know where my parents were so told me-bearing in mind this is about 32 years ago!- to go back home and go to sleep!!!! i did and can remember telling my mum about it about a week later-i was afraid of getting a telling off for waking people up!-and she looked totally shocked.she didn't even know i'd been out!....then she denied it.still never got to the bottom of that one! (she reckons i was dreaming!)!!!

my mum used to leave me asleep in my cot in the morning while she took my brother and sister to the coach stop for school which is a 3 minute walk away.

because just cos he's never drunk bleach doesnt mean he will suddenly decide to do it
because just because he isnt going to intentionally fall down the stairs doesnt mean he wont do it by accident
because just cos hes never decided to play with the gas before doesnt mean he wont do it this time
because he might be scared if he woke up and couldnt find you

etc ad infinitum

My son is 3. Until the last month or so he was a whinger and argumentative but in terms of being naughty or inquisitive he was fine. Now he is up to windows, playijg at the sink, helping himself to stuff off the bathroom shelf, opening the stairgate, opening the front door, getting stuff out of the cutlery drawer. So suddenly things I thought he never did he is doing.

I think you're rigtht the risk of him doing something stuipid deliberatley is tiny, but accidents do happen, and yes you could say they will happen even if you were at home, but if youre there or able to react faster accidents might not be so serious.

When I was 2 my mum was in hospital due to waters breaking way before her EDD. This was circa 1977 so she was on bed rest in the hospital for weeks.

My dad worked full time so the arrangement was that next door would look after me during the day. The 'hand-over' was very early as my dad worked for a newspaperand so the lady next door would pop in after her breakfast and wake me up each day then care for me until my dad came home at teatime. I was unaware of the precise arrangements until one day I woke early to find myself alone in the house.

I remember being able to get to the front bedroom window and just peer over the window sill to see outside. My dad was nowhere to be seen and I was DISTRAUGHT! I cried and cried. Some time after (I am assured only about 5 mins) my neighbour appeared and was very, very lovely and calmed me down. I remember watching some pop programme and vividly remember eating Rice Krispies in my high chair.

I will never forget this and I still have a bit of fear about similar situations - being left, as an adult.

That's just one reason for not leaving them alone imo. Although I have considered using a monitor in place of me in certain situations like when on holiday. Thought better of it though. I should've known better.